TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;14

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;17 - 00;00;33;16

John Woelfling (JW)

We looked at that rectangle and where the opportunity was to expand the building horizontally, and then really started to figure out where the best units would be located, where the best apartment layouts would be in the existing building. It was actually a challenge. We were not going to change the fenestration where the windows are located or the size of the windows.

 

So that really dictated a lot of the apartment placements and the size. So I think we were pretty clever about putting all the like fundamentals and figuring out how the floorplan would come together.

 

00;00;33;23 - 00;03;17;20

DP

This is my guest, John Woelfling. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we highlight John's project 50 Nevins Street. 50 Nevins Street is located in downtown Brooklyn. It literally appears to be two buildings in one. The approach was to reinvigorate a century old building through gut renovation and addition, which provides affordable housing, housing for formerly homeless individuals and mental health services.

 

The historic site, with its new ten story addition, features 129 new apartments. The building was originally designed by famed Brooklyn architect Frank Freeman, opened in 1913 as a YWCA. In the early 1930s an extensive portion of the building was shaved off to enlarge. Schermerhorn Street and make way for the subway line. That adjustment resulted in an imbalance to the original Colonial Revival building.

 

The new couple design ascribes value to the existing building and helps restore the balance it had lost. The existing red brick building remains shorter with a classical cornice. The new building sits slightly taller, flush and adjacent with a recessed connector which visually separates the architecture. The contrast in masonry color, dark connector and stylistic changes to the forms and facades set the two buildings apart esthetically, though clearly their co-combined.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. John Woelfling is a partner at Dattner Architects in New York City and holds a Bachelor of Architecture from Virginia Tech. John leverages his broad experiences working across project types like education, recreation, health care and infrastructure to inform his leadership of the firm's mixed use residential projects.

 

John is a recognized passive house expert. His focus on sustainable design practices is guided by proactive education of evolving green technologies and incorporating them into his work. John's committed to creating sustainable, efficient designs that use an integrated, holistic approach. He frequently lectures about affordable housing and sustainability. Speaking at the Center for Architecture, the New York State AIA, Urban Green and Green Build, Forum for Urban Design, Reimagine Conference and the Phius Passive House Conference.

 

So welcome, John. Nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Dattner Architects in New York City. Where are you guys located? What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;17;22 - 00;05;20;11

JW

So Dattner Architects is a firm that's been around for close to 60 years. We are located in Midtown Manhattan, just like a ten minute walk from the studio, so it's nice and easy to get over here. We've been there for a little over a year and a half, but our offices have been in New York City for our entire life of the firm, we’re about 110 people now.

 

I just met with a few people and we're looking at hiring some more people. So it's a good time to be practicing in New York City and working on housing and the wide variety of work that my firm does. We do a mixed bag of cornucopia of project types. We do housing, which is what we're going to talk about today.

 

We do subway stations, we do marine transfer stations for garbage, we do a salt shed here or there, medical health care, schools, libraries, a whole mixture of projects. I'm going to talk about some of the advantages that gives us a little bit further on if we can.

 

One of the projects that you or maybe some of your listeners know is a project that's on the West Side Highway at Spring Street. It is a salt shed. These types of projects that you might normally see that are a salt shed are very utilitarian domes, and they just protect the salt from the elements. But our project, we did something kind of clever, which was we created this shell that was inspired by the crystal and shape of the salt. So it's this kind of crystal that sits along the water along the West Side highway.

 

So if you're going up and down the West Side Highway, you've probably seen this. Keep your eyes open for it now. But that's an example of how my office has this sensibility of taking these very civic things that could be very plain and very understated and look for those opportunities. And sometimes we hit a home run, sometimes, you know, we get on base.

 

But each one of those projects is a real opportunity to take a civic piece of architecture, which is what we do. We do civic architecture, and we look to make the city, the city that we live in the best that it can be. So I'm very proud to be part of the work that we do. It's a large group of people, as I said, 110 people. It's inspiring every day to be able to go into the office and work with such a great group of people.

 

00;05;20;14 - 00;05;37;25

DP

That's so great. I mean, you're doing exactly what you're taught to do in architecture school, right? You're taking advantage of the project at hand, you're being creative, you're being thoughtful, you're impressing the client, you're making beautiful things for people that live in the city. It sounds fun and it's a good time to be working. You said you're busy.

 

00;05;38;02 - 00;06;15;19

JW

Yes, we are busy. We've had some ups and downs. But I do think one of the advantages of our firm is that we have this mixed group of typologies. So, you know, when housing was like going gangbusters a couple of years ago, we were really busy and a lot of our work was housing. But as things have shifted over to more infrastructure, which is actually what we're seeing, we're seeing a lot more investment in infrastructure.

 

We're having those subway type projects, those marine transfer stations, those types of utilitarian transportation and infrastructure projects are taking over a greater percentage of our work. So we're continuing to stay busy. So the old adage of diversifying your portfolio applies to many, many things.

 

00;06;15;21 - 00;06;20;29

DP

So you are a principal in the firm. How long have you been there and what's your role in the office now?

 

00;06;21;01 - 00;08;13;19

JW

So I have been a principal there for 20 years. I've been practicing as an architect in the city for 30 years. So I landed at Dattner relatively early in my career and found it to be a great place to stay and work. So I've been there for that long. One of the things that I focus on now is our housing work, our housing studio.

 

As I mentioned a few minutes ago, the housing work has been a great source of workload in the past decade, 15, ten years. As that work became more and more important in the office, we needed to have leadership to take over and really guide that practice. And one of the things that me and others in the office have been focusing on is integrating really innovative, sustainable design strategies into our housing.

 

And this, I think, has its biggest benefit in affordable housing. The way housing often gets developed in dense urban environments like New York City is that it is the harder to develop sites that are most likely to be affordable housing because they are the less desirable sites, the sites that are either adjacent to a highway, adjacent to a subway, difficult geometry, a lot of rock, some sort of challenging situation, which thank you for the recognition that my firm and me personally are doing what architects are trained to do looking at these challenges and finding the opportunities.

 

So that's what we do. We often are faced with challenging sites that maybe are right near infrastructure that is really adding to pollution and environmental degradation. So this idea of sustainable, affordable housing I think is really in our work translated into environmental justice, taking people who might normally live in these underserved communities that have this infrastructure and a real inequity for environmental considerations and trying to make that better. And one of the ways we do that is through Passive House.

 

00;08;13;21 - 00;08;20;04

DP

So let's dig in here and talk about our building. Tell us a little bit about 50 Nevins Street. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;08;20;06 - 00;10;13;14

JW

So one of our clients, ICL, which stands for Institute for Community Living, and they are a not for profit organization that does just tremendous, phenomenal work in the city, serving really at-risk underserved people in New York City. They owned this building. They purchased it in 1986. As you mentioned in the intro, it was originally designed as a YWCA as an SRO, a single room occupancy building.

 

So all the rooms were like single bedded rooms. There was a common cafeteria and kitchen and common bathing facilities. So it was like really stacking people in. And this was like an old model of housing people that was, you know, appropriate at a certain time in the city's history. But not really contemporary residential standards, what we would expect today.

 

So that was kind of the history of this building. You also mentioned the shaving off of the north end of the building, which actually we suspected that through some research, but we didn't really get it confirmed until we got into the building and started doing the demolition and saw, oh, this is where they replaced this column with a different type of steel that was in the original building.

 

It was riveted steel. In the new portion it was rolled sections. We'd see the back up wall or actually the composite wall. And the original building was all brickwork. It was all bonded brick wall in the new building in the modified part that happened when they widened the street, it became a terracotta block back up with then the finished brick in front, the window details were different. So it was actually really interesting to have that kind of confirmation and see it once the demo all happened. The building has this legacy of being modified and I think serving the greater good, the widening of the street and the shaving off of 20 feet of the building was done so that there would be this greater public amenity of the subway station that would be improve the life of all New Yorkers.

 

00;10;13;16 - 00;10;18;24

DP

Yeah, interesting. It's all related. So what was the building next to your building?

 

00;10;18;27 - 00;11;33;13

JW

The building next to our building was a recently constructed hotel, which was a very different building type, superstructure type construction techniques, and much taller than the existing building as well. So it was a really dominating presence. So one of the things that we tried to do and I think we were pretty successful is kind of mitigate that presence.

 

It was just to the west of our site. But yeah, we wanted to kind of bridge that more contemporary with the traditional classic building that was retained on the site. The strategy that we employed for the redevelopment was to expand the building both vertically and horizontally. The horizontal piece was easy. You just, you know, you build next to the building.

 

There was a parking lot. Basically a service area for the existing building, which is, you know, very handsome pre-war building. But that pre-war building kind of vintage came with a lot of burdens or a lot of legacy issues that made the building more difficult to use as a contemporary building that needed to be handicapped accessible.

 

The systems were out of date really at the end of their service life. So we had to do some major kind of heroic things to this existing building to keep it.

 

00;11;33;13 - 00;11;34;14

DP

And you wanted to keep it?

 

00;11;34;21 - 00;12;03;18

JW

Yeah, absolutely. It was such a handsome building also, I've mentioned sustainable design, but one of the most sustainable things that you can do if you're doing a project is to keep an existing building, keep the shell, keep as much as you can. Now, obviously, you've got to like do some demolition and throw some materials away. But if you can keep that building out of the landfill, keep that building from having to be shipped to the landfill and all the energy that goes into that retaining that energy that was originally used to build the building, that's one of the most sustainable things that you can do of all.

 

00;12;03;24 - 00;12;06;09

DP

So tell me, is the subway system still there?

 

00;12;06;11 - 00;12;21;03

JW

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. We don't quite feel it rumbling in the building when it goes by, but there were some really special supportive excavation considerations that we had to do. We had to be really concerned about settlement. So there was a lot of thought put into the foundations of this building.

 

00;12;21;03 - 00;12;22;27

DP

Yeah, the new foundations.

 

00;12;23;00 - 00;13;57;28

JW

So the new foundations were complicated. The existing building foundations were also complicated. When we did this vertical expansion above the existing building, I mentioned earlier the term heroic, and it really was heroic. I mean, when I look back on this, I think, Oh my God, what was I thinking? And we actually convinced somebody to do this. We convinced a contractor to do this.

 

We convinced our client, which, you know, there are great clients. I don't want to make it sound like I've deceived them, but it was a really courageous project to both undertake by all parties. In the existing building we built above, there was additional load that we were superimposing on the existing superstructure in that building. We had to brace one of the columns so that we could lower the footing and increase the size of the footing.

 

And the way we did that was and when I say we, I mean it's really the contractor that did this. We came up with the concept, but they executed it. There was a huge beam that was spanned from one column to another that supported this column temporarily, that we were going to lower the footing on, and they jacked that beam up and supported that column so that the existing footing that was undersized could be pulled out, excavated further down, and then a new footing could be introduced and an extension of the column.

 

So gutsy acrobatics to do this. And the way they tested whether that beam, a temporary beam that was put in, whether it separated the footing from the column, was they took a piece of paper and they slipped it between the footing and the base plate of the column to see if it was actually separated. So they wanted to test that to make sure there was daylight before they pulled out that existing footing. Phenomenal construction sequencing and logistics. It was a gutsy project I'm very proud of.

 

00;13;58;01 - 00;14;00;21

DP

So what were the project restrictions like for you guys?

 

00;14;00;26 - 00;15;33;11

JW

So there were a couple of restrictions. When we first started looking at this, we wanted to increase the density of the project because it was a rare kind of once in a building's lifetime opportunity to increase the amount of affordable and supportive housing that could be provided in downtown Brooklyn. So our client ICL, knew that this was kind of their one chance.

 

So we looked at a couple ideas, a couple of options, and to get to 129 units, we had to bend, maybe break the rules of the New York City zoning resolution. And the way you do that is you go through something called a ULURP. It's a process that involves community engagement. It involves talking to city planning, New York City city planning departments, and doing something that is not as of right.

 

The current zoning resolution and building code allow you to build certain things. As long as you get approval from the Department of Buildings, you can build those. But we needed to bend the rules here or break the rules to make this actually happen. So we went to the various city agencies, went to community boards and made this proposal to expand the building vertically, to increase the floor area ratio, the amount of floor area that you can build on the site.

 

And we were successful in that because I think a lot of these stakeholders recognized that this project was going to really make a difference to so many people's lives and be a community asset. So normally we've all heard the term NIMBY, not in my backyard. Normally. That's one of the things that we bought up against when we do these types of projects and there was some of that, but I think it was much more toned down because people recognized the benefit of this project.

 

00;15;33;18 - 00;15;37;18

DP

So did you guys have the building completely designed when you went to the people?

 

00;15;37;21 - 00;15;48;12

JW

No. We had the vision. We kind of had a good idea how many units were going to go into the building. We knew what the program was going to be. We had some of the renderings completed because that's really important to making that pitch to stakeholders.

 

00;15;48;18 - 00;15;51;24

DP

What about height requirements for you guys? What limited you?

 

00;15;52;00 - 00;16;15;09

JW

I'm going to try not to get too much into the weeds and the zoning resolution, but this is it actually falls into a limited height district in downtown Brooklyn, which we adhered to, but we needed the increased floor area. The height was somewhat limiting, but there were other limitations on the building as well. We could only add so many floors onto the existing building before we kind of maxed out on what we could really feasibly do with the existing foundations and the existing superstructure.

 

00;16;15;11 - 00;16;24;13

DP

So let's talk a little bit about the building plan. So the existing building is like a long rectangle. So what did you guys do with your additions?

 

00;16;24;15 - 00;17;55;23

JW

So one of the really critical things for affordable housing in most housing, all housing is efficiency. And the efficiency was really driven by the desire to maximize the number of units that we could put here so we could serve the most people. So we looked at that rectangle and where the opportunity was to expand the building horizontal lean and located our cores, our elevator and our stairs in a spot that worked best for that, and then really started to figure out where the best units would be located, where the best apartment layouts would be. In the existing building, it was actually a challenge. We were not going to change the fenestration where the windows are located or the size of the windows. So that really dictated a lot of the apartment placements and the size. New York City has something called light and air requirements for the apartments, you need to have a certain size window for a certain size room, and you can't go below that for both light daylight and ventilation.

 

So the existing building’s layout was determined largely not completely, but largely by the existing fenestration layout. And then we had more flexibility in the new building portion, but that was also a challenge because it was a very limited floor plates and it really had to integrate with the existing building. We had corridors that we had to figure out.

 

We placed the elevator in the inside corner where the two buildings meet, because that's a place where you can't really put apartments because there's no windows there. So I think we were pretty clever about putting all the, like, fundamentals and figuring out how the floor plan would come together.

 

00;17;55;25 - 00;18;01;04

DP

How did the apartment sizes compare from the old building to the new building? Are they exactly the same?

 

00;18;01;06 - 00;18;57;09

JW

No, it is dramatically different. The original SRO, the single room occupancy, I mean, the rooms were eight feet wide, ten feet deep. So really puny and not in any way contemporary or fair housing model for the residents that were going to come back. So we basically blew out all those interior partitions and relaid out the building interiors.

 

The original building was actually a double loaded corridor. And when I said below the corridor, I mean there's a hallway down the middle and it's got apartments on either side, fairly efficient way to do it. But it was such a narrow building and the site is so narrow that when we redid the building in this more contemporary model of apartments, we couldn't fit a double loaded corridor in there.

 

So it's really a single loaded corridor in the existing building. In the new building, we had more flexibility in the site dimension, so we were able to do a double loaded corridor in that portion. But it was, yeah, a real challenge to adapt the existing building. But as I said, you know, it's one of the most sustainable things you can do.

 

00;18;57;16 - 00;19;01;06

DP

Are the apartments a lot larger in the new building and the windows taller?

 

00;19;01;12 - 00;20;38;07

JW

I would say in the new building, no, they're not significantly larger. They're just kind of what they are. I think the windows are maybe a little bit taller, certainly wider. We wanted to have some affinity between the two buildings. We didn't want to have like completely different fenestration sizes, which really I think would be inequitable to the people who would move into this building.

 

But we did in many ways, we made the new building distinct from the existing building. You go around New York City or any other city that's been around for a while and you see these buildings that are historic and have been adapted. You know, there's a couple of ways you can do it. You can either be matchy matchy about it and try to replicate in new construction and new materials a very similar thing.

 

And that's usually pretty apparent. It's never seamless, even if you could make it perfectly matching, I just don't think that's genuine. I don't think it's a truthful representation of where we are in the construction and it's not necessary. There may be times when it's merited, but it shouldn't be your knee jerk reaction. It shouldn't be the starting point.

 

So one way is to be absolutely seamless about it. One is to put a cap on top of the building. But we wanted to make this building really tell a story about the history of it. So we basically wrapped this new piece of contemporary construction up in around the existing building and allowed it to kind of finish off the existing building.

 

You mentioned earlier some of the adaptations that have happened to the building that I think really compromised the original integrity of the design, the symmetry and the way the building ended. So I think we kind of rectified that with this new construction that comes over the top and helps finish the building in a way that I think looks more appropriate.

 

00;20;38;12 - 00;20;42;27

DP

So tell me about the cornice on the existing building. Is that new or was that there?

 

00;20;43;02 - 00;20;51;14

JW

That's actually a really interesting question. The cornice we thought from the street level. Oh, that's the original cornice. It looks very detailed and looks contemporary on the building.

 

00;20;51;16 - 00;20;52;11

DP

It's gigantic.

 

00;20;52;11 - 00;21;05;12

JW

It's gigantic. Yeah, it's probably four feet tall and overhangs three feet. It's yeah, it's enormous. But we got up there and when we started to do that demolition that I mentioned earlier, it's made of fiberglass. So it was actually done some time, I think in the…

 

00;21;05;12 - 00;21;06;06

DP

Sixties or so?

 

00;21;06;06 - 00;21;27;27

JW

I think it was actually in the eighties. I think after ICL originally bought the building, they did a couple modifications to make it better suit their needs, not to the extent that we'd most recently renovated, but they, I think, replaced the existing cornice with a fiberglass one. The fiberglass one is in great shape. We kept it. We like took it off where we had to for construction sequencing and logistics, but then put the thing back and just re-caulked it. It's done now.

 

00;21;27;28 - 00;21;40;09

DP

But it's a great cap to the existing building and it really sets the two buildings apart. And when you look at the additions, it all kind of makes sense. And that cornice I think does a lot to do that.

 

00;21;40;14 - 00;21;53;23

JW

Yeah, it's a very formal gesture, that retaining it and then allowing that to be part of this kind of bridge. In this reveal that you also mentioned earlier, the reveal is very intentional to help make that separation very visible and legible.

 

00;21;53;29 - 00;22;01;25

DP

So did you guys have to make many structural changes to the existing building? You gutted it and it's steel? On the interior?

 

00;22;01;25 - 00;22;06;18

JW

Steel frames, multi exterior wall. We did do window replacements.

 

00;22;06;20 - 00;22;08;26

DP

Changed the way the walls are insulated?

 

00;22;08;29 - 00;23;14;11

JW

We did, yeah. We did a spray-on insulation. I know there's some critique of spray on insulation, but it really was the right material for this because it gave us our vapor barrier and our improved insulation all in one shot. But yeah, we did that on the inside of the building. One of the principles of Passive House, which is a system to really decrease the building's energy requirements, you significantly drive down the energy loads in a building using the system.

 

And the way you do that is a high performance building exterior. That's one of the strategies, is you make a high performance building exterior, which is both your windows and your insulation and your continuity of the insulation and your air vapor barrier. So in historic buildings you're somewhat limited with what you can do with that continuous insulation because you've got your slabs coming in, the slabs are buried on the exterior wall or the steel, but there's thermal bridges that just can't be avoided in these buildings of this timeframe.

 

But we did the best we could. And on balance, with the insulation on the inside and the new building’s envelope, we were able to get a building that could easily comply with the energy code. So yeah, we had to insulate the existing buildings walls and that's how we dealt with that.

 

00;23;14;18 - 00;23;22;17

DP

You guys had to replace some of the existing brick. So talk a little bit about that and then tell us what kind of brick you used on the new addition.

 

00;23;22;20 - 00;24;41;25

JW

Sure. Yeah. The existing brick, we had to undo some sins of the past at lintels the repairs that were done previously. Not quite sure when they were done with maybe a little bit less sensitivity to matching the brick and the mortar. So that was some of the repair work that we did at the existing building. The existing building also has a base, a very formal base.

 

It's a very classical design to have that base. So we wanted to, that was another one of these affinity points that we wanted with the new building. So we created this base, which was a dark grounding brick that's a Glen-Gery product, it's a Black Hills velour. The velour is the finish on the brick. So that kind of established the base of the building.

 

Then above that, we did a much lighter, more contemporary brick, also a Glen-Gery product, White Plains velour. Again, the velour is the finish of the texture of the face of the brick, and we did similar coursing, the mortar is very different. The mortar in the White Plains is its own mortar. The existing buildings, mortar repairs were their own mortar, so they would match that building's texture and coloration.

 

But through a combination of the same brick size, the same coursing, and also picking up on that limestone detailing that's in the existing building we did kind of create this affinity between the two buildings. So they're definitely distinct from each other, but they're also kind of of a family.

 

00;24;42;01 - 00;24;48;23

DP

Yeah, it's a nice touch. It ties the two buildings together. So how long did this whole process take from beginning to end?

 

00;24;48;25 - 00;26;00;29

JW

That is a good question. So the ULURP is something that you don't normally undertake. The ULURP is a discretionary approval process, so that added about a year to the design time. So I would say it took about 18 months to design the building, and the construction of it was also really complicated. It took, I think, 30 months to build it, and that included demolition, it included the excavation, and a global pandemic.

 

So it was one of these projects where, you know, we had to figure out how to do this, how to work remotely, work with the contractor, with all these site safety considerations. So we were fortunate enough that in the city there was a program that allowed for affordable housing to proceed. So it was told to the Department of Buildings that this is an affordable housing project and they give you a special permit that you post on the construction barricade.

 

And that allowed us to proceed. Now, it doesn't mean that we could proceed business as usual. Before the pandemic, there were all sorts of hand-washing stations and protocols for staff to be, you know, separate. And we would show up on site, we'd have masks, we wouldn't walk between crowds of people. So the fact that it got done in two and a half years is kind of a real testament to the partnership between ICL, the contract and the design team.

 

00;26;01;05 - 00;26;21;21

DP

So you'd mentioned the unique construction detail with this steel column that you guys had to alter the foundation for. What about some of the masonry on the exterior? Were there any unique construction details that you guys had to come up with? For example, for the connector, how did you guys end up doing that? I mean, is it all pretty straightforward?

 

00;26;21;23 - 00;27;03;24

JW

Well, yeah, I guess straightforward is a real simplification of what's involved. But yeah, we had to figure out where the steel was going to go, where we were going to break that new steel versus the existing steel. There's got to be some tolerances for movement and construction tolerances. That bridge was really made through that recessed metal reveal that you see separating the two buildings.

 

So we made it easier on ourselves by doing it in that different material that allowed for a lot of tolerance. It could be pushed back 18 inches and if, you know, was 16 inches in one place and a little bit different on the other side, you couldn't really tell because it was a very different material. So I think we're smart about making our lives in the contractors' lives a little bit easier.

 

00;27;04;01 - 00;27;08;11

DP

And how does the new additions touch the building next to it?

 

00;27;08;11 - 00;27;12;07

JW

There is a seismic joint.

 

00;27;12;07 - 00;27;13;06

DP

Really? Is that pretty typical?

 

00;27;13;06 - 00;27;41;21

JW

It's pretty typical, yeah. And it's based upon the various heights of the building. For every 50 feet it's one inch. So I think we had a setback from the property line three inches because we were just over 100 feet. So for every 50 feet you got one inch. So if you're 110, you got three inches. So we had something called an MCO joint, which is just a squishy finished joint that you kind of stuffy in after everything else is up and constructed. And that allows for any sort of seismic movement in case there's an earthquake.

 

00;27;41;23 - 00;27;45;28

DP

So tell me a little bit about the Enterprise Green Communities Program.

 

00;27;46;00 - 00;31;03;17

JW

It is a program that any affordable housing project that is going to be using public funds needs to adhere to. It's a little bit like LEED, LEED is a very broad system. So Enterprise and LEED are broad. They talk about community connected communities, recycled materials, water usage, energy usage, healthy interior environments. So that system is really helpful and I think it helps there be a consistency through all of the affordable housing that's being built now that there is this level of sustainability that is not only about carbon, it's about water, it's about interior indoor air quality.

 

So that's a really important system. The Passive House system that I've touched on a little bit earlier takes one piece of that, the energy piece of it and really ramps it up. So Passive House is about investing in that building exterior. You have a high quality envelope with continuous insulation, continuous air barrier that allows for very little air to come in or out of the building.

 

And that continuity is also part of the windows. And the windows are usually high performance windows that are either triple glazed or just high performance glazing. And what that really allows the envelope of the building to do is to be almost like a winter jacket. I think a good analogy aside from the winter jacket analogy, is like a thermos, an insulated cup versus just the standard deli coffee cup.

 

Your deli coffee cup is going to lose the heat in the coffee pretty quickly. If you've got the thermos, it's going to retain that heat for a lot longer. So what that allows you to do in the building is retain interior internal heat gains. And the internal heat gains are lighting, appliances, people occupying the space. So those internal heat gains that you can gain passively and retain in the building allow you to really drive down those heating loads in the building.

 

So in a building built in New York City, similar to 50 Nevins on its scale and its size and its number of occupants, you can heat the apartment with a hand dryer, so you really drive down those heating loads. You've got to cool the building too. So that high performance envelope also helps keep that cooled air, that energy that's invested in the air, keep that inside the building.

 

It's not leaking outside the building. You're not getting hot, humid air bleeding into the building when you're exhausting the bathrooms and the kitchen. So Passive House is really taking the energy component of any affordable housing building and really ramping up the stakes and making it a much more high performance building. There's more to it than that. The mechanical systems need to be designed and balanced for that.

 

There's domestic hot water that needs to be taken into consideration, but it's an area of practice that we are really pushing for and advocating with our clients for not only just being democratic and equitable for the buildings and the environments that they're often located in, but there's also regulatory pressures that are coming down the pike. There's something called Local Law 97, which is going to fine buildings if they don't have certain energy performance, if they emit too many emissions, whether it's carbon or sulfur dioxide or whatever, there's metrics for buildings of certain types and their sizes. And if you are not meeting those standards, there's going to be penalties to pay.

 

00;31;03;19 - 00;31;04;26

DP

So that's coming down the pike.

 

00;31;04;26 - 00;31;42;01

JW

That's coming down the pike. I think 2025 is the first threshold or maybe it's 2026. But we're designing buildings now that are going to take a year to design, two years to build. So by the time they're operational, we're in Local Law 97. So we're advising clients to not put your heads in the sand on this. You know, a lot of people aren't doing this.

 

The intense heat that we've been feeling, the wildfires in Canada, the fires and migration, we're starting to see the stuff hit the fan. So our clients are reading the writing on the wall. Local Law 97. There is a Local Law 154 that's banning gas usage.

 

00;31;42;04 - 00;31;43;20

DP

Natural gas.

 

00;31;43;20 - 00;31;53;10

JW

Yeah, natural gas. And you've actually done something that I want to check you on. Yeah, sure. It's natural gas, but who told you it's natural gas? It's fossil gas. The idea of that, it's natural. Okay.

 

00;31;53;10 - 00;31;55;02

DP

I was distinguishing from propane.

 

00;31;55;06 - 00;32;17;11

JW

Okay, well, it's kind of all the same stuff. It's all carbon that goes into the atmosphere and affects our climate. So I don't mean to be a jerk about it. And I find myself kind of being programmed by certain, you know, sales pitches and how they want you to perceive these things. So, yes, there's a natural gas ban, however nice you want to say it. So there's all these regulatory pressures.

 

00;32;17;11 - 00;32;20;23

DP

When you say local law. So this is New York State, New York City?

 

00;32;20;26 - 00;33;06;12

JW

Local law is just New York City. There's state legislation that's also banned gas fired equipment. And California's doing a similar thing. So it's amazing how much the landscape is shifting under our feet. There's a building in New York City not too far from where we are right now that was designed six or seven years ago. And one of the really innovative, cutting edge technologies that they used was to use a gas turbine to produce all of their electricity.

 

There was a cogen plant, so on the top of the building on the 73rd floor, they've got a gas turbine. And I believe it's also producing domestic hot water for the building's use, which seems, you know, at the time innovative, were going to be more independent. But I can't imagine trying to propose that sort of strategy now. So it's really amazing how much the landscape is shifting under our feet.

 

00;33;06;14 - 00;33;12;19

DP

So you've been an architect for 30 years. If you could give your younger self some career advice, what would it be?

 

00;33;12;21 - 00;33;55;23

JW

Knowing what I know now, I wish I would have been more thoughtful about sustainability and how important that is, because I think the decisions that we're making now, we're only really going to see the benefits of that or the implications or the results of that down the road and when I think about how much carbon has been put into the atmosphere since, like I think 1992, I think 50% of the carbon that's in the atmosphere was produced I think since the nineties. So it's not climate change, global warming. It's often thought about as something that's occurred in over a century. And a lot of the legacy emissions were from the beginning of the industrial revolution, but it's really not the case. It's really in this compressed time frame that's in the last 30, 40 or 50 years.

 

00;33;55;25 - 00;34;02;22

DP

John, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where could people go to learn more about Dattner Architects in New York City and yourself?

 

00;34;02;25 - 00;34;18;20

JW

It's really easy. We've got a website, Dattner.com, I think we have a good representation of our work there. You'll see that all of our work is basically in the city and we can ride the subway to get to our site. So it's a pleasure to have spoken to you today and glad to be able to share some of my experience.

 

00;34;18;23

DP

Thank you very much and great to have you here

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;10

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;12 - 00;00;30;08

Gabe Deck (GD)

We wanted to make sure we could fit as many units while making them as wide as possible. So five ended up being kind of the magic balance point to get them feeling pretty wide, really maximizing at least four bedrooms, five plus bathrooms, elevators and then roof deck spaces are pretty key for Philadelphia Center City townhouse developments. These houses each contain three roof deck spaces.

 

00;00;30;10 - 00;03;16;07

DP

This is my guest, Gabriel Deck. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we highlight Gabriel's Sansom5 Project in Center City, Philadelphia, Sansom5 is a collaborative venture between Philadelphia and New York developers. The site is a 5000 square foot rectangular parcel with three street frontages that previously contained small office buildings. The site is in Center City, Philadelphia, close to the Rittenhouse and Fittler's Squares.

 

There's a five foot grade change across the main frontage, and the parcel sits within a flood zone adjacent to the Schuylkill River. Most neighborhood buildings are primarily brick masonry with strong cornice lines, which drove esthetic and material choices. Each townhouse features entry door locations where grade changes mitigated and the facade is recessed within a portal of capstone. The project, which is light brown brick, also features facade materials that include gray, flat block, metal panels, wood, accent cladding, and a mix of black and brown clad, slim profile windows.

 

The project includes five high-end townhouses which maximize square footage. Each home contains four bedrooms, six bathrooms, an elevator and three outdoor spaces. Hi, I'm Doug Pat, and this is Design Vault. Gabriel Deck has a Bachelor of Architecture from Temple University. He describes himself as a big time Philadelphia guy, having stayed in Philly after college and continues to do business there.

 

He began his career working for Wallace Roberts on a variety of project types. After the 2008 recession, he got his real estate license, where he made a number of contacts in residential development over the next few years. These relationships led to a number of small residential design projects. He eventually started his own small firm. His work was mostly urban, small scale residential editions, which quickly grew into new construction townhouse developments and then larger adaptive reuse residential projects.

 

The scale of work grew over the first few years, as did the business. The firm was rebranded GNOME Architects in 2018. The team is currently nine people operating out of a repurposed public high school in South Philadelphia. The firm has 400 plus projects to date, mostly in Philly, but also in other parts of the country as far reaching as Colorado and Maine.

 

Welcome Gabe. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about GNOME Architects in Philly. Where are you guys located? What's the size of the firm? How long has it been around and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;16;09 - 00;04;27;27

GD

So GNOME Architects has been around since about 2018 after a rebrand of my previous business. We're currently a team of nine people comprised of myself and my business partner, Derek Spencer, and a handful of designers. So the business started back in 2013. Originally when I quit my job at WRC to focus on some small residential projects that I had acquired from developer contacts that I had made working in real estate.

 

Philadelphia is a small town in terms of the industry. Word spreads and quickly I was able to get a lot of project work by way of these developer contacts. Most of the projects were third floor additions, small townhouse, new construction, infill projects. And once I partnered with Derek Spencer, we started focusing a bit more on larger multifamily work.

 

The team grew, the project scale grew. Now we are working on developer driven business on one end of the firm doing large multifamily work, low rise podium buildings. Most are 30 to 50 units in scale. And then on the other side, we're doing custom single family homeowner projects with interior design as well.

 

00;04;27;29 - 00;04;41;10

DP

So Gabe you had your real estate license, which is pretty interesting for an architect, and you use that, I'm assuming, for a few years during the recession and then kind of moved back into architecture. When did you get your architectural license?

 

00;04;41;13 - 00;04;58;08

GD

So architectural license came around 2012, couple of years after the real estate license, and kind of was doing the two in tandem, you know, working nights and weekends trying to do sales. I got burned out pretty quickly, doing a full time job with an architecture firm, and then that on nights and weekends, it was a lot.

 

00;04;58;11 - 00;05;15;06

DP

What's so interesting to me is over the course of my career, I have met a lot of architects that end up doing lots of different jobs because architects aren't always busy all the time and they're one of the first people hit by recessions.

 

00;05;15;08 - 00;05;36;28

GD

Yes. And that's exactly kind of what happened to the big firm that I was with. I wasn't sure of my future there, wasn't sure what I was going to do. And real estate. I had a number of friends that were in the business. I went in that direction and I figured it was somewhat parallel to an interest in residential design.

 

So it seemed like a natural fit and thankfully it led to a lot of good relationships and some work to start the business.

 

00;05;37;05 - 00;05;42;19

DP

Yeah, it certainly sounds fortuitous. So what is your role in the office as a principal?

 

00;05;42;25 - 00;06;01;00

GD

I share the burden of running of the office with my business partner, Derek Spencer. I would say my role is more in the CEO traditional sense, while also the design director of the firm, where my business partner is handling more of the technical development of things and more overseeing the design development of things.

 

00;06;01;02 - 00;06;06;14

DP

So it's always interesting to find out how people end up working together. How'd you meet Derek?

 

00;06;06;17 - 00;06;40;10

GD

Derek and I started working together. He was my first employee, actually. I met him through mutual contacts when I realized I was spread too thin, working out of a spare bedroom in my home in the early days of my business. Derek was currently working for a firm across town, that’s, I'd say, one of our competitors. He was looking for something new, and it was the infancy stages of the business, so he came to start working with me.

 

And fast forward to three years later, we had a team of four of us and we were ready to rebrand and create GNOME Architects.

 

00;06;40;13 - 00;06;57;06

DP

So let's dig in here and talk about the project. This is really beautiful and I would imagine it took some time to get done in Center City, Philadelphia. So how did your office get the project? And you did mention obviously that you had some relationships or acquaintances that were developers.

 

00;06;57;09 - 00;07;23;25

GD

This project actually came from one of my very first clients that I had who was connected with the real estate office where I hung my license at that time. It was a partnership between that long existing client and a couple of developers from New York City that purchased the property, and we assisted them to take it through all of the permitting process and all the hoops we had to jump through as it's a pretty sensitive site.

 

00;07;23;27 - 00;07;28;02

DP

So could you give us a little history of the location before your buildings?

 

00;07;28;04 - 00;07;57;09

GD

So the site is on the western end of Center City, Philadelphia, about a block away from the Schuylkill River, sits in a floodplain about five feet or so below the FEMA flood zone line. It was a three sided site. So we had challenges to create, drive all access and building entrances and maximizing the use of both Center city and looking west towards the river.

 

So it was a challenging yet a site that had a lot of great opportunity as well to work with it.

 

00;07;57;12 - 00;08;03;10

DP

Yes, So unusual to get a piece of property in the city with three street frontages.

 

00;08;03;13 - 00;08;18;27

GD

Yeah, it's pretty uncommon, but it actually allows for some benefits as far as how you apply the zoning code and how city planning orients. The frontages actually worked to our benefit to get a driver on the back and five houses fronting the broad side of the site.

 

00;08;18;29 - 00;08;43;06

DP

So, Gabe, what was the scope of the project and what were the programmatic requirements for the townhouses?

 

00;08;43;09 - 00;09;09;12

GD

So the scope of the project was to try to maximize as many townhouse units as we could across the site, while also ensuring that they felt large and spacious and wide with Philadelphia townhouse development. You're often dealing with very narrow properties, so anything that's built new construction is typically somewhere between 14 and 20 feet wide or so. So we wanted to make sure we could fit as many units while making them as wide as possible.

 

00;09;09;12 - 00;09;30;29

GD

So five ended up being kind of the magic balance point to get them feeling pretty wide. The developer wanted to make sure we could provide as much parking as possible, so each unit has a two car garage and then really maximizing at least four bedrooms, five plus bathrooms, elevators, and then the big thing here also is just outdoor spaces.

 

00;09;30;29 - 00;09;42;01

GD

So roof deck spaces are pretty key for Philadelphia Center City Townhouse developments. These houses each contain three roof deck spaces.

 

00;09;42;04 - 00;09;45;02

DP

And how many stories has the project has had? Four or five.

 

00;09;45;04 - 00;09;59;18

GD

It's technically five stories by way of the code. However, there is a pilot house on top of each house, which also contains some livable or habitable space, which makes the buildings read as six stories interesting.

 

00;09;59;18 - 00;10;21;08

DP

So let's talk a little bit about the style, the architecture, some of the buildings that surround it. I had mentioned that we had some pretty strong cornice lines locally and you probably picked up on that in terms of brick courses. And then we've got some really beautiful, tall, decorative patterning on each one of these facades.

 

00;10;21;15 - 00;10;45;02

GD

We typically like to do our best to work in some contextual elements into our projects. So with this site, there's a lot of surrounding context that has primarily brick material, very strong cornice lines at the rooflines. So inserting a new development that is essentially six stories adjacent to a lot of three and four story buildings, we had to kind of get creative to make things fit in.

 

00;10;45;05 - 00;11;08;23

GD

So we kind of struck a line at the top of the fourth floor for the brick material. Coming up to that, a chorus line at the top of the fourth floor. And then we selected a kind of a gray, brown, beige tone brick, as a lot of the neighboring buildings are a variety of colors. So there's not really a strong predominance of red brick or white brick or brown.

 

00;11;08;23 - 00;11;16;20

GD

It's kind of all over the place. So the gray brown tone of the selected brick that we used kind of was a nice middle ground for it.

 

00;11;16;22 - 00;11;34;10

DP

So let's go back to the zoning for a second. So these buildings step back as they move up above that third story. Plus they're up at least on one end, at least five feet, creating these stoops. Did you have to step the buildings back? I know you clearly did that for functional reasons to have these roof gardens up there.

 

00;11;34;17 - 00;11;57;18

GD

Yes. So it was, again, just a way to kind of fit within the context of the lower height buildings around us. The zoning code didn't really require us to set the buildings back where we did. We did it more for the outdoor spaces, but the fourth floor line was kind of the natural place to do a material transition to make the massing fit well with the vernacular nearby.

 

00;11;57;20 - 00;12;00;28

DP

Were there any historical reviews by the zoning board?

 

00;12;01;00 - 00;12;31;12

GD

Surprisingly, this was not a historical designated site, so we were not subject to any historic review. I would say the biggest hurdles we had or really within meeting the flood zone regulations. So it was a challenge to make sure we maintained all the FEMA regulations so these buildings don't have basements. We have flood doors on all facades and the challenges related to keeping your habitable floors above the flood plain were the big driving elements for this.

 

00;12;31;15 - 00;12;45;24

DP

Okay, so first floors above the floodplain, the base, the plinth, I'll call it, is masonry, is brick masonry. So you have these doors. Do they have to be a certain size? And I would imagine they're breakaway or is that the way it works?

 

00;12;45;26 - 00;13;06;23

GD

So each structure had to have a number of flood vents on at least two sides of the exterior walls. The size of these denser, I believe, one square inch per square foot of building footprint. They allow for the passing of flood water going in and out of the building just to relieve the flood pressure that the building would be subject to.

 

00;13;06;28 - 00;13;21;11

GD

So we did our best to hide them in kind of inconspicuous areas along the front facade where they were required, as well as the back of the building where the dry is. That's not really seen from the public right of way. So it was a nice place to hide these vents.

 

00;13;21;13 - 00;13;32;09

DP

So tell me about the apartments and plants we get along rectangle and each one of these is more squarish in plan. And I'm also wondering, I don't see the two car garages.

 

00;13;32;11 - 00;13;56;26

GD

Yeah. So the garages are all facing a rear drive aisle that we were able to hide. It's like a one way drive I'll access that comes in off of one of the small side streets, exits on the far end of the other side street. And then there are two car garages at the rear of each home are facing this drive while the driveway is also covered by a series of exterior decks, each deck serving one of the houses.

 

00;13;56;26 - 00;14;01;13

GD

So it's a covered drive aisle with a garage door. At either end of it, you never actually see it.

 

00;14;01;19 - 00;14;04;11

DP

And the buildings in plan are the each rectangles.

 

00;14;04;13 - 00;14;17;17

GD

Yes. So they're roughly, I'd say, 22, 23 feet wide by 40 to 50 feet deep with the drive at the rear and the main entrance at the opposite side facing the street frontage.

 

00;14;17;20 - 00;14;23;24

DP

So what was the building review like with the city of Philadelphia? Was that challenging? Was it time consuming?

 

00;14;24;01 - 00;14;45;16

GD

So it had a bit of back and forth. Our office handling primarily projects in Philadelphia. We've made a lot of good relationships with different plans examiners, different city agencies. I've gotten to know the process pretty well, as it is rather daunting for anyone who's unfamiliar with it. So I would say this project had a number of rounds of verifies from the plans.

 

00;14;45;16 - 00;15;10;14

GD

Examiner is mostly related to the interpretation of the parking that was implemented as well as kind of the interpretation of the roof deck access structures and that type of things. And typically it's a dialog with them to make sure everyone's kind of on the same page and there's a middle ground you need to find. But I would say we got through it in a couple of rounds, which was better than we had expected given the sensitive features of the site.

 

00;15;10;16 - 00;15;25;02

DP

So building materials you guys used primary Li Brick, I mentioned to you before we got rolling, it's a light. It appears to be a light brown brick. It's actually called Stonington gray velour. It's got a wide variety of values or shades in it.

 

00;15;25;08 - 00;15;46;03

GD

This was a really beautiful brick that worked well for our goals to kind of strike a line between the various masonry colors of the surrounding buildings. So it actually has a nice amount of variety in it. Some of the bricks are a lot more brown and darker. Some of the bricks are very light kind of in the the off-white color range.

 

00;15;46;03 - 00;16;06;16

GD

So once you get close, you really see the variety of color that's in there, which is really nice. And then at different times of the day, it also reads a little bit differently in the morning in direct sunlight. It kind of has a more of a warm brown tone to it and kind of in the twilight hours of the sun going down, there's a lot of reflectivity is caught.

 

00;16;06;16 - 00;16;13;14

GD

And when you look closely at it, so it really speaks well to the contemporary approach that the building esthetic has.

 

00;16;13;16 - 00;16;42;09

DP

What I love about this project is the brick pattern. You guys really spent a lot of time working on all the different patterning that's happening at the Stoops and around the windows, at the cornice lines. So tell us about how you did that in the office. Right? Typically we see a designer working on exterior elevation drawings and then, you know, the lead designers review them and it's back and forth and then eventually you're putting that into the CDs and you're doing mock ups in the field.

 

00;16;42;09 - 00;16;43;19

DP

So how did that go?

 

00;16;43;22 - 00;17;09;08

GD

Yeah, so it surprisingly went pretty smoothly on this project. The brick patterning that we went with was kind of a solution to a number of problems. We had planned driven windows, which is typical of these Philadelphia townhouse projects where you don't have a lot of space. So your windows can only go in certain areas. But then when you want to create alignments vertically on the facade and such, you've got to kind of get creative.

 

00;17;09;08 - 00;17;32;11

GD

Sometimes if that's a goal. So the brick patterning that we implemented was a tool to kind of strike these alignments vertically in the facade. So we have this recessed entry portal that is maybe two thirds of the width of the frontage, but the windows on the upper floors could not necessarily align with the jams of that portal opening.

 

00;17;32;11 - 00;18;01;20

GD

So we implemented brick patterning at the JAMB locations of the windows to then create a hard line that would align with the portal entryway below. That's one way we used the pattern to help. We also used it to just create interest on the facade. As I mentioned, the flood zone required us to keep the living spaces pretty high out of grade and that resulted in what would otherwise be a rather blank wall at the base of the building.

 

00;18;01;20 - 00;18;17;09

GD

The changes in brick pattern were a tool to kind of add some interest, so the brick we chose in relationship to a lot of cast stone that also creates some interesting accents around the window openings was a nice balance.

 

00;18;17;12 - 00;18;26;27

DP

What I really love is in this photograph on the far left you've got the brick patterning at the center stoop, but the patterning is completely different. On the left and right.

 

00;18;26;29 - 00;18;52;27

GD

The stoops were a huge focus of the design, so we had to get the occupants about 5 to 6 feet above the sidewalk level to the entry doors, which instead of having kind of a visible staircase that would otherwise dominate the sidewalk, we utilized a screen wall of brick in front of the staircase entryway that was also in front of a patterned planter box.

 

00;18;52;27 - 00;19;16;10

GD

So you have these multiple layers of masonry that add interest at the staircase. It allows us to insert some greenery as well. So it's a very tactile experience as you walk up to the front door of these houses that worked out very beautifully and the execution of the masonry and saw was fantastic by the mason as well, which we were very pleased to see.

 

00;19;16;12 - 00;19;39;18

GD

We had a series of conversations with the GC to make sure everyone was on the same page with the detailing. Our construction documents were very thorough to make sure that the areas of recess patterning as well as kind of projected roll lock and soldier course detailing was achieved and all the shadow lines could be read throughout the day as the sun moves around the building.

 

00;19;39;20 - 00;19;42;16

DP

So did you guys draw this in 2D and 3D?

 

00;19;42;18 - 00;20;12;01

GD

Yes. Our process typically starts with a three dimensional model of the building that we get to a comfortable point. We utilize sketch up primarily for a design tool in the schematic phase. And once we're happy with the sketch model, we move into 2D drawing. This project was done a few years ago before our office implemented Revit, but we were still able to successfully document how all the masonry patterning was working in 2D.

 

00;20;12;04 - 00;20;16;29

DP

So did you show the three dimensional model to the clients along the way?

 

00;20;17;06 - 00;20;42;27

GD

We did. We had a number of options for this projects. They were all similar in the materiality, but some were maybe a little more traditional, others were even more contemporary looking. So we utilized the 3D models as a design tool to visualize the project to the client. And in the end they were very happy with one of the options we chose, which had very minimal changes that they needed to see.

 

00;20;43;00 - 00;20;47;25

DP

Clients love 3D models, right? Were you able to model any of the BRIC in SketchUp?

 

00;20;47;27 - 00;21;17;18

GD

We built the SketchUp model and applied some custom made material swatches that we built utilizing other brick colors, and we made sure we could match exactly what the Stonington gray velour would look like. And then it was just a matter of scaling the pattern down to the brick unit. So even in the areas where you have these dimple patterns that read against the entryway walls, all of the patterns were aligned perfectly to align up with the massing recesses that took place in the model.

 

00;21;17;18 - 00;21;19;20

GD

So it ended up being pretty successful.

 

00;21;19;22 - 00;21;23;26

DP

So how many people worked on the team for the project from the architects office?

 

00;21;23;28 - 00;21;40;10

GD

I would say that through the design process there were at least four of us that work through the design concepts together and I would say primarily one designer and myself kind of pushed the design to where it is now. But back when we did the project, it was a pretty collaborative effort within the office.

 

00;21;40;13 - 00;21;48;08

DP

So I feel like every project I learn something new. Did you guys learn anything through the process of working on this project?

 

00;21;48;11 - 00;22;11;06

GD

We learned quite a bit, especially in terms of the brick detailing here. We kind of learned that certain patterns have rules around them, especially when you're utilizing like a stacked pattern where you have these very clean vertical lines that need to be maintained. It's tricky to make sure that things don't read as a mistake within that patterning, especially as it relates to where you put windows.

 

00;22;11;08 - 00;22;31;10

GD

So we had to make sure our window spacing was just right. So you didn't results in little slivers of brick that would be noticeable and read as a mistake. So we took a lot of care in making sure that the tolerances and the actual window sizes and everything were worked in to make sure that we didn't end up with those kind of conditions.

 

00;22;31;12 - 00;22;45;08

DP

And that takes some pretty close work with the. Mason You mentioned that you thought the execution worked out well. Did you guys have a tough time finding a mason or was the first mason you guys ended up meeting the person you used.

 

00;22;45;10 - 00;23;11;22

GD

So the general contractor, it was his team, really. And the mason that he chose and started the project with kind of nailed it right from the start. We had probably two or three on site meetings with the Mason, looking at the drawings. That's a back and forth with some questions. And then ultimately we had a small mockup in the field and everyone was on the same page and collectively in the room together to make sure that the execution was going to happen just right.

 

00;23;11;22 - 00;23;12;18

GD

And it did.

 

00;23;12;20 - 00;23;40;09

DP

So last thing I wanted to ask you about was the metal panels on the fourth floor and these large bay windows on the outside edges of the building. Really beautiful. These are great details. You see these bay window details everywhere on 1930s and forties, city architecture. And I think doing that on the ends of these buildings and then adding the flat lock metal panels to the fourth floor is really beautiful.

 

00;23;40;11 - 00;23;41;19

DP

Great detail.

 

00;23;41;22 - 00;23;59;21

GD

Yeah. So back to kind of the challenges of working in Philadelphia and not a lot of space to work with. The bay windows are always a tool to add a little bit more interior square footage, but the challenge is always Hadia clad them. How do you make them feel appropriate when the rest of the facade material is masonry?

 

00;23;59;23 - 00;24;29;00

GD

Yeah, we kind of struck a line with a traditional meets contemporary bay esthetic to compliment the window patterns within the masonry as well. So the bays have very kind of glassy windows, wrapping all sides in the same style of windows as the punched openings within the flanking brick masonry and then the color of the bays being much darker than the masonry was meant to draw more attention away from the bay and actually focus it on the adjacent brick masonry.

 

00;24;29;02 - 00;24;48;17

DP

One more comment or question. These entry portals are beautiful. Was it tough for you guys to decide? Okay, we're going to set back the front door and these very large windows lose a little bit of square footage, but we get these entries which are highly differentiated on the facade or along the facade.

 

00;24;48;20 - 00;25;11;06

GD

Yes. So the entry portal was a result of trying to solve a problem around the narrow sidewalk. The city only allows you to project so far into the public right of way and you're trying to make this nice prominent entrance for this luxury townhouse. And in order to achieve a wide staircase going up there, you got to kind of recess the frontage of the building.

 

00;25;11;06 - 00;25;31;25

GD

So we accomplished that by recessing just the entryway that the ground floor. When I mentioned being in the floodplain, we had to get the first floor up pretty high. So the entry door is actually at a middle landing between the garage level in the first floor. The first floor is actually up about ten feet above the sidewalk. So we recessed the entryway.

 

00;25;31;25 - 00;25;40;02

GD

It allowed us to have four or five foot wide steps leading up to the front door and a nice prominent procession up the steps to the front door of the house.

 

00;25;40;09 - 00;26;03;15

DP

Well, Gabe, it's a beautiful project. When I first saw these photos, I was really excited to do this interview. So I have done so many different things in my career while being an architect. And while it's not that unusual, I've found that being an architect has helped me to be good at lots of other things in my life.

 

00;26;03;18 - 00;26;30;10

DP

The other thing that I will say is that we end up working on many different things in our lives, even if we're let's say you end up doing stair details for a large firm for ten years and you think I wasted all that time doing stair details. The reality is we never really know when any of the things that we learn how to do will come in handy and can ultimately change our life in some way, even if it's in a small way.

 

00;26;30;10 - 00;26;45;28

DP

So I think it's really cool that you got your real estate license because you made all of these relationships or just a couple relationships that ultimately helped you become a successful architect. It's a big deal, right? So I don't think you give yourself enough credit.

 

00;26;46;00 - 00;27;04;16

GD

Yeah, I think I realized early on that I was good at some things, but not good at everything I needed to be good at. So the relationships were everything, especially in the early days. So knowing when to reach out to the people who know the solution is a big part of being an architect, a big part of being an entrepreneur.

 

00;27;04;16 - 00;27;22;22

GD

Starting a business as well is, you know, you need to do it right. You have a license that you got to hang your hat on. So it's critical for you to understand when it's time to reach out for design professionals outside of your purview and outside of your profession for the right solution to problems on your projects.

 

00;27;22;24 - 00;27;29;20

DP

So, Gabe, it's been great to have you here. Thanks so much for your time. Where can people go to learn more about No more architects and yourself?

 

00;27;29;22 - 00;27;44;25

GD

Sure. So our website is pretty current websites WWE and gnome arch dot com genome RC. I would say even more current than that is our Instagram account, which is also at Gnome Arch.

 

00;27;44;28 - 00;27;47;19

DP

So one more question. Where did you get the name?

 

00;27;47;21 - 00;28;09;22

GD

The name actually came from a rebranding exercise that we did back in 2018 and we were looking to create a new identity that spoke to the residential nature of our products and we wanted to kind of speak to the home and a place of being. So the gnome, the garden gnome is a character that does that. It's the marker of place.

 

00;28;09;22 - 00;28;35;29

GD

We also wanted the branding to be very memorable and approachable, so we initially kind of wrote off a name that came to us from our rebranding company and we thought it was crazy. And the more rounds of more names they suggested to us, the more we came back to that first stab of GNOME being the solution and so happy that we trusted in the company that we rebranded with and it's worked out for us very well.

 

00;28;36;05 - 00;28;37;25

DP

It's a great story. Well, thanks again, Gabe.

 

00;28;38;00 - 00;28;41;13

GD

Thank you.

 

00;28;41;16 - 00;29;05;01

DP

Thanks for listening. If you learned something today, share this episode with a friend and give us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts to help others find the show. If you want to find out more about today's project, visit Glengarry com forward slash design dash vault that's gleaned GSR y dot com forward slash design dash vault one even more inspiration.

 

00;29;05;01 - 00;29;28;24

DP

Take a look around Glengarry icon while you're there. Glengarry is one of the nation's largest brick manufacturers and an industry leader for its diversified product line of more than 600 brick products with inspiring photos, useful resources, easy search tools, helpful design studios, and more. I'm sure you'll find the inspiration you need to stretch your imagination

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;22

Doug Patt

Let's go inside the vault. The Design Vault.

 

00;00;05;25 - 00;00;20;17

Michelle Wagner

One of the nice things about the site is it's next to the landmark districts. So the heights to the north are low and set, and they won't go any higher. So we knew we wanted to be tall and get as many apartments above that height for views to Manhattan.

 

00;00;20;20 - 00;02;15;29

DP

This is my guest, Michelle Wagner. I'll share more about her shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault we’ll highlight Michelle's project Front and York. Front and York is a 1.2 million square foot mixed use and multi-family complex in Brooklyn, New York. The large scale two tower development occupies an entire city block and encompasses a unique blend of apartments, condos, and luxury penthouses, as well as an unparalleled package of indoor and outdoor amenities, and more than 140,000 square feet of retail.

The project features a blend of more than 750 condo and rental units, as well as an interior courtyard that spans nearly one acre. Not to mention a challenging 25-foot grade change across the site. The building resembles that of a late 19th or early 20th century warehouse or factory, but significantly more luxuriant. With a glass fiber reinforced concrete frame and light gray brick infill, the building is quite beautiful and absolutely massive.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Today we're talking to Michelle Wagner, registered architect, LEED AP. Michelle has her Bachelor of Environmental Design from the University of Colorado and is a registered architect licensed in New York and Colorado. Michelle is a project director at Morris Adjmi Architects. Before joining Morris Adjmi, Michelle worked on the World Trade Center Master Plan and design guidelines with studio Daniel Libeskind.

With more than 25 years of experience, she excels in the management of large-scale projects and has played a vital role in leading the design and delivery of some of the firm's most ambitious assignments. So, let's get into the details. Welcome, Michelle.

 

00;02;16;03 - 00;02;18;08

MW

Thank you, Doug. Thanks for that introduction.

 

00;02;18;12 - 00;02;26;08

DP

So first, tell us a little bit about Morris Adjmi Architects. Where are they located in New York. What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you do?

 

00;02;26;16 - 00;02;49;29

MW

Sure. We are in lower Manhattan, downtown, really. Right near the stock exchange. It's about a 100 person firm in New York. We also have a small office in New Orleans, about maybe a dozen people now. And that's where Morris grew up, actually. So he still has a home there and family there. And that office covers a lot of our work that's in the South now as we really branched out.

 

00;02;49;29 - 00;02;57;23

MW

We started as a very New York based firm in 1997. Do you want me to go ahead and tell the story of Morris's origin story?

 

00;02;57;24 - 00;02;59;13

DP

Yeah, sure. I'd love to hear it. Absolutely.

 

00;02;59;15 - 00;03;25;27

MW

OK. He was working with Aldo Rossi in Italy. He speaks Italian and he became kind of Aldo Rossi's right hand man in New York when he got the commission of the Scholastic Building in Soho, which you probably know. It's kind of a very modern, but fitting into that historical context very well, right next to the Little Singer building, which is a very famous piece of architecture we all probably learned about an architectural history class.

 

00;03;25;27 - 00;03;36;29

MW

So Aldo was tragically killed in a car accident in the nineties, and Morris finished that project for him and kept the office going and started his office from there.

 

00;03;37;06 - 00;03;39;23

DP

Wow. So what kind of work do you guys do today?

 

00;03;40;00 - 00;04;00;04

MW

We really focused on multifamily, office, hospitality work, our core. We also have art services and interior design, so we really try to deliver all of those services whenever we can. We also have a guy that focuses on urban design, so we've got some multi parcel experience in master planning as well.

 

00;04;00;07 - 00;04;03;21

DP

Wow. So, a comprehensive list of services that you guys offer.

 

00;04;03;24 - 00;04;04;26

MW

Absolutely.

 

00;04;04;29 - 00;04;11;08

DP

So, tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you end up at Morris Adjmi? How long have you been there and what's your role in the office?

 

00;04;11;10 - 00;04;49;02

MW

I came to New York originally to work on the World Trade Center Master Plan with Daniel Libeskind, which - with my husband - which was really supposed to be a six-month contract. And we've been in New York for 20 years now. So that's the way things go. After that, I really enjoyed the experience of working on large scale master planning projects.

So, I went to another firm for a while that focused on master planning and architecture. And then through a friend that I met at that firm, I just heard about this great architect, Morris, and I started to look at the work and I got invited for an interview and that was seven years ago, and I haven't looked back.

 

00;04;49;04 - 00;04;51;06

DP

Oh, that's so great. So, you're clearly enjoying it.

 

00;04;51;06 - 00;04;52;16

MW

Very happy there. Yeah.

 

00;04;52;18 - 00;05;00;12

DP

So, let's dig in here and talk a little bit about our building. Tell us about the Front and York project. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;05;00;14 - 00;05;14;08

MW

It was an invited competition. It was LIVWRK and CIM. There were three or four architects, I think. Bjarke Ingels was one of them... ODA. So, we all had a charrette. It was paid, but you know, not a lot.

 

00;05;14;10 - 00;05;15;13

DP

Sure. Of course.

 

00;05;15;15 - 00;05;28;02

MW

It was a lot of excitement around this competition because it was a big, big block. And you just don't get projects this big in the city very often. So, a lot of effort went in, and we won. So that was great.

 

00;05;28;05 - 00;05;35;20

DP

So just as an aside, are there a lot of competitions like that in New York that firms like yours or firms that are your size try to get?

 

00;05;35;25 - 00;05;51;04

MW

We're often invited to competitions where they've already kind of pre-selected architects and asked to participate. And of course, it's optional if you want to do that, because you know when you're going in for a competition that you're going to put a lot of effort in really to win that project.

 

00;05;51;12 - 00;05;53;16

DP

And how many firms do you usually compete against?

 

00;05;53;22 - 00;06;11;09

MW

We don't always know, honestly. At the time, sometimes it's a blind, so we don't really know. And then we try to find out, with some difficulty. But, you know, three or four small group, I think if it was a large number, we'd be less interested. Yeah, because you got to feel like there's a good chance.

 

00;06;11;11 - 00;06;14;07

DP

That's great. And how long does that process take?

 

00;06;14;13 - 00;06;15;13

MW

Usually, six weeks.

 

00;06;15;22 - 00;06;18;27

DP

So, you have six weeks to complete the project. And then...

 

00;06;18;27 - 00;06;20;00

MW

A concept design.

 

00;06;20;00 - 00;06;29;00

DP

The concept design. Okay. And then they pick somebody. Well, that's going to be challenging to like scheduling projects in the office. Are we going to get this one or are we going to get that one?

 

00;06;29;02 - 00;06;42;16

MW

Oh, yeah. Well, that's a lot of what I do now as a director. A lot of the scheduling. When I worked on Front and York, I was the project manager, so it was really about the project but have been elevated to director. So, it really is more about scheduling and staffing.

 

00;06;42;17 - 00;06;44;17

DP

I bet, with all those people.

 

00;06;44;17 - 00;06;45;05

MW

Yeah.

 

00;06;45;07 - 00;06;54;03

DP

So, tell us a little bit about Front and York. So, tell us some of the history of the location of Front and York and then how did that impact the design?

 

00;06;54;05 - 00;07;03;07

MW

So, the location is a full city block in Dumbo and it was formerly a lead factory and so there was contamination on site.

 

00;07;03;07 - 00;07;04;09

DP

I can only imagine.

 

00;07;04;09 - 00;07;23;12

MW

Yeah. And I think maybe that's why it sat vacant since the eighties. I think maybe it was a private parking lot and fenced for decades. So, you know, it really needed a big development like this to afford to clean off the site because really, we remediated like 50 feet of soils in some areas.

 

00;07;23;12 - 00;07;24;07

DP

50 feet?!

 

00;07;24;09 - 00;07;38;14

MW

Yeah. So, all of the contaminated soils were dealt with, some carted away somewhere, cleaned on the site under supervision of AKRF, our environmental engineer. So, it really took a big project like this to kind of utilize that site.

 

00;07;38;16 - 00;07;41;08

DP

Was the area around the site already well developed or...

 

00;07;41;10 - 00;07;49;01

MW

It was. There were already towers around the site. 100 J Next door was a tall tower. I don't know. It's probably 20 years old at least.

 

00;07;49;04 - 00;07;59;09

DP

So, what were the client's programmatic requirements? You guys won the competition and they said, okay, this is what we need. Or you already knew that because you had entered the earlier competition and won it.

 

00;07;59;11 - 00;08;14;27

MW

Yeah, they came with a residential program, mixed use. They already knew what they wanted the program to be, of course. We weren't sure how we were going to handle the middle of the block because it is an extra-large block. So, some of our early options had a road in the middle.

 

00;08;14;28 - 00;08;15;16

DP

Oh, wow.

 

00;08;15;20 - 00;08;54;17

MW

One thing they really wanted; they wanted cars to be thought of as part of the site. Whether we drove up with a big turnaround in the middle, like the Antwerp, I think it's got a big turnaround in the middle. So, we looked at that. At the end of the day, we decided that the center of the block really should be a park and it would bring the value up for all the interior apartments as well as the street side.

One of the nice things about the site is it's next to the landmark district. So, the heights to the north are low and set and they won't go any higher. So, we knew we wanted to be tall and get as many apartments above that height for views to Manhattan.

 

00;08;54;19 - 00;09;03;02

DP

For those of you who are listening, should take a look at the site plan and the floor plan because it really is quite beautiful with almost like a park-like feature right in the middle.

 

00;09;03;06 - 00;09;22;21

MW

Yeah. As you mentioned, in the beginning, there's a massive park. It's like almost the size of a football field. It's for all the residents. We have a mixture of apartments and condos, front York, but everybody can access the park and even there's a lifetime fitness there as well. And they have some access to that park.

 

00;09;22;26 - 00;09;35;03

DP

Oh wow, that's so great. So, I know there's something unique about the site, right? There's a change in topography. So, when you guys first went out there and looked at that, am I correct, it was 25 feet approximately.

 

00;09;35;08 - 00;09;35;27

MW

About 20.

 

00;09;35;28 - 00;09;47;23

DP

So that's a big deal for a lot. That is as big as this one. You have to start to think about this going to be a really big building. Where do we enter? What floor we entering? How did you guys deal with that?

 

00;09;47;25 - 00;10;09;24

MW

It was a real challenge and of course we had to look at many iterations on how to deal with that. One thing we did know is that we wanted the condo lobbies really to see through to the park, and the condos are sited on opposite corners of the site. So, there's a big grade change from the lobby floors on each corner, like 20 feet.

 

00;10;09;29 - 00;10;24;04

MW

But we wanted to see that park. So, you know, eventually what we came up with was really like rolling hills in the park. I think when you go there, you'll notice it's very kind of hilly and there's a lot of winding path and it feels very organic and natural.

 

00;10;24;08 - 00;10;33;20

DP

Not like a city. So, tell me a little bit about the zoning ordinances there. You said you guys could be taller than buildings that were nearby. How is that even possible? And what were your restrictions.

 

00;10;33;23 - 00;10;57;02

MW

Actually, we are an as of right project. We did not apply for any variances. That was part of the directive from the beginning. We didn't want to wait for that. It can take months to get a ULURP or a zoning amendment here. So, we were as of right. So, we just maximized the floor area and the height limit and really didn't have to get special approvals.

 

00;10;57;04 - 00;10;58;24

DP

Interesting. So that's kind of nice.

 

00;10;59;02 - 00;10;59;22

MW

Yeah.

 

00;10;59;29 - 00;11;05;07

DP

Right? Walk into a project like that. So, tell us a little bit about the building plan. So, it's like a big donut.

 

00;11;05;12 - 00;11;31;16

MW

It's a big donut, yeah. With a large park in the middle, there's sort of a lower podium level that's about eight stories and then on opposite corners there's the towers, which are the condo apartments that are 22 stories tall, and those were sited on diagonal corners and also diagonally from another existing tower in the neighborhood, just to maximize view corridors and make sure that we weren't blocking any view corridor.

 

00;11;31;18 - 00;11;37;06

DP

Did you guys go through a lot of design iterations in terms of where those towers were and how tall the building was?

 

00;11;37;06 - 00;11;38;01

MW

Absolutely.

 

00;11;38;02 - 00;11;38;29

DP

A dumb question!

 

00;11;39;01 - 00;12;07;24

MW

Well, an interesting thing is, though, in our competition, it was similar massing with the two tall towers on the corner, but they told us, okay, that was the competition. Now we're starting over. So, we looked at every possible massing scenario again. And then of course, we ended up back with the towers on the corner. But the big changes, they were more massive. They were bigger towers, more like bars, because they really wanted to have great views in these apartments.

 

00;12;08;01 - 00;12;25;03

DP

So, style, I said in the intro, it looks a little bit like a factory warehouse building. I mean, it does, but it doesn't, right? I mean, it's incredibly stylistic. Talk a little bit about how you chose the particular style because it's a little traditional and it's still contemporary.

 

00;12;25;05 - 00;13;03;23

MW

You know, I think we were inspired by all the factory buildings in Dumbo. I mean, that is the period of significance, that early American factory building, which were very large, and they had big factory windows and were usually brick or masonry.

The storefront, you might notice we have a very tall sort of metal, blue metal storefront, and it looks very muscular, almost like structural steel. It's aluminum, but it looks like structural steel that was really inspired by the Manhattan Bridge, which you can see just down the block from both Front and York. You see the structural steel of the bridge.

 

00;13;03;25 - 00;13;09;05

DP

So, you guys decided from the get go that you were going to make a brick building, right?

 

00;13;09;07 - 00;13;48;22

MW

We did. We always wanted the brick. We actually looked at this building as precast donuts initially, just really a client directive thinking that was going to be the most economical solution. But even as precast, we wanted that gray brick. I mean, we were really trying to kind of fit into the neighborhood. There's a lot of granite, gray cobblestone in Dumbo and it was a big building, so we wanted something a little recessive and quiet, I think, in the brick color. So, we were looking for that dark gray brick, even when it was a precast building, which ultimately, it's not precast. It’s hand-laid Glen-Gery brick.

 

00;13;48;25 - 00;13;53;04

DP

So, what are some of the unique construction details that you guys employed here using brick?

 

00;13;53;25 - 00;14;37;23

MW

Well, the first thing is the brick itself. I mean, we had actually gone pretty far down the road with the precast and had a gray color in mind. But, you know, of course, economics are always a factor. And we couldn't find an economical gray brick that suited us.

So thankfully, we had a great salesperson that told us about, new at the time, custom color Glen-Gery on go clay coating, which is not like a clay coat that's very opaque and solid. It's actually more translucent and we could pick any color that we wanted and it was pretty economical. So that's what we did. We found a beautiful kind of dark, medium gray, very muted, and then a little lighter gray at the penthouse. On the kind of additions on top.

 

00;14;37;26 - 00;14;48;01

DP

And I'm looking at some really beautiful details here, particularly the recess in between that kind of frames out every one of those windows. Was that a detail that you guys spent a lot of time working on?

 

00;14;48;01 - 00;15;04;08

MW

Yes, that was actually a detail that we developed when it was precast donuts. And funny enough, we really liked it because it just gave that little bit of detail to the facade that without it, it felt a little bit flat. So that was originally there to hide the precast joint.

 

00;15;04;08 - 00;15;05;20

DP

Oh my gosh. So, it's a remnant of an earlier design.

 

00;15;05;20 - 00;15;14;01

MW

It's a remnant of an earlier design. I think at one point the client suggested maybe we should take it off. And we all said that we really like it.

 

00;15;14;08 - 00;15;16;15

DP

Yeah, it does an awful lot for the facades.

 

00;15;16;15 - 00;15;23;14

MW

We're going to use it to hide the brick control joint instead. So, that's tucked in there. And that's why you don't see them at the windows.

 

00;15;23;16 - 00;15;25;01

DP

So the control joints are inside.

 

00;15;25;03 - 00;15;26;17

MW

There in that reveal to one side.

 

00;15;26;26 - 00;15;32;05

DP

Oh, I'd love to see a blow-up detail on that. Tell me a little bit about the concrete structural frame.

 

00;15;32;07 - 00;15;34;18

MW

That's the GFRC. The white frame.

 

00;15;34;18 - 00;15;35;19

DP

Yes. Is that structural?

 

00;15;36;08 - 00;15;53;18

MW

Really beautiful. It's not structural, it's trim. This is a concrete building. So yeah, that is a device really to help modulate the scale of the building and also to help it read from a distance. I mean, you can see, actually, you can see that from a plane. I've seen it flying overhead.

 

00;15;53;19 - 00;15;54;22

DP

Are you serious?

 

00;15;54;24 - 00;16;12;15

MW

Yeah, it really does help bring down the scale because, you know, could you imagine if you didn't have that trim? I think the white color, it's really kind of neat standing on Front and York and seeing the blue and white bridge just right there and just kind of the colors just feel good. They fit into the neighborhood. There's white on the bridge.

 

00;16;12;22 - 00;16;17;28

DP

Had you guys looked at doing that in any other color, like gray, having it melt back into the facade?

 

00;16;18;05 - 00;16;34;02

MW

We study everything. We're very iterative, I think in our process. And you - we always internally look at three options. You know, we really push it and then we narrow down the options for the client usually, but lots of options.

 

00;16;34;04 - 00;16;38;08

DP

So, did brick solve any particular design challenges for you guys or for the client?

 

00;16;38;14 - 00;17;10;07

MW

I think the choice to go to brick was just feeling competitively at the time it was cost, but also just the control of knowing that you could go to different masons if you needed to. I think a lot of times there were more than one trade for - I don't know about the brick. I think that was just one mason in the end, but because it was such a big building, they wanted to make sure that there was some duplicity, I guess, of trades being able to work on things. And I think they got nervous about getting all the precast from one place.

 

00;17;10;14 - 00;17;20;17

DP

Did you guys have any challenges finding a good mason? I mean, I would imagine in New York it's not a big deal, but even in a Westchester County where I do a lot of work, we always have a challenge finding good masons.

 

00;17;20;17 - 00;17;35;25

MW

The masons were great. Everybody was great. New Line was the CM, New Line Structures. And we worked on this three years in construction. After three years, it was really hard ending construction because we were kind of a big happy family at that point. It was great.

 

00;17;35;27 - 00;17;44;18

DP

So, into the office I often think about how many people work on a project. How many people were on this team, and how many people did the drawing for the job?

 

00;17;44;25 - 00;17;50;01

MW

I'd say at least 20 at its peak, when we were in construction documents.

 

00;17;50;11 - 00;17;53;07

DP

Yeah. Now, did you guys do this in 3D?

 

00;17;53;10 - 00;18;35;11

MW

Oh, yeah. We did this in Revit. We usually start with Rhino, something very, you know, design-y and flexible and fast. But once you get into Revit, it becomes you're building a building, right. And a computer. So, becomes more cumbersome. But we absolutely did it in Revit. And actually that ended up being tremendously helpful because we use BIM in construction all the way through. That is, New Line did. That's something they like to do and always do. So, they have specialists that can really run Revit and they model in great detail all of the MEP plumbing and electrical systems throughout the building. So, we find clashes in construction on the computer before they ever happen in the field.

 

00;18;35;14 - 00;18;38;01

DP

How long have you guys been on Revit? Just curious.

 

00;18;38;03 - 00;19;04;14

MW

I think we transitioned, probably fully by 2018. When I started in 2016, I think we had one or two projects in Revit. Now we're all Revit. I think we're starting to lose people that know how to work in CAD, but we still have a few. Well, because everybody does Revit. So, we really, we can export to CAD and everything, but we just don't have many people drawing in CAD anymore - and doing the layers.

 

00;19;04;18 - 00;19;13;07

DP

Oh my goodness. Right. That that's how I operate right now. Well, I do both, but I'm on ArchiCAD. Are most of the people in the city on Revit?

 

00;19;13;14 - 00;19;21;15

MW

I think so. I'm sure there are still people working in CAD, but I think more and more people are going to Revit, especially for big projects.

 

00;19;21;18 - 00;19;29;18

DP

So, did sustainability ever come up as a factor in choosing brick, for example, color, texture, thermal, code compliance?

 

00;19;29;21 - 00;20;03;03

MW

This isn't a LEED project, so we didn't consider it for its sustainability, per se. But we did do something at Front and York, which was we qualified for Zone Green, which is a New York City zoning rule, that if you make your exterior wall thicker and heavily insulate it up to 16 inches thick, you actually get a zoning bonus for that. So, we did that. So, these are 16-inch-thick walls with lots of insulation, CMU back up. That's how this is a sustainable project in terms of the brick wall.

 

00;20;03;08 - 00;20;05;20

DP

So, it's an efficient veneer - it's an efficient facade.

 

00;20;05;21 - 00;20;22;21

MW

It's a very, yes, efficient façade. Helps with heating and cooling loads. We also won the Big Apple Brownfield Award for environmental protection for the clean-up effort I mentioned. Yeah, 2020. So, cleaning up that site was a very good move for Dumbo.

 

00;20;22;28 - 00;20;26;20

DP

Just curious, where does all that go? Where does all the land that they've removed...

 

00;20;26;26 - 00;20;38;12

MW

Sometimes they can actually treat it on site. It depends on - they test certain segments like it's a very involved process. If it's very, very bad then there are places out west that will accept it.

 

00;20;38;12 - 00;20;38;28

DP

Okay.

 

00;20;39;01 - 00;20;54;09

MW

If it's not, that can be landfill like for other projects that can be cleaned and kept local. So, the good fill was - actually like people would come, they put a call out and people would come if they needed fill for their construction projects and they'd cart it away.

 

00;20;54;14 - 00;20;59;09

DP

Yeah. Interesting. So, I'm thinking here, do we see any masonry on the interior?

 

00;20;59;13 - 00;21;08;27

MW

We do a little bit up on the eighth floor and amenities. We have some sort of indoor-outdoor fireplaces that have brick. So yeah, there's a little bit.

 

00;21;09;04 - 00;21;18;10

DP

That’s great. So did your team learn anything interesting through the design and construction process, something maybe that you guys hadn't been through in the past?

 

00;21;18;13 - 00;22;15;18

MW

I would say that one thing that we found very difficult at first was the redlining process in architecture, where the more senior architects will redline drawings and then give them to the junior staff to pick up the changes. That was very difficult with a 20-person team. So that kind of prompted us to find a tool which we eventually found Blue Beam Studio, which now we use on every project in the office where you can go in and do group markups together and highlight together. So, it's one document and you refresh the document periodically. So, we had a lot of logistical challenges like that.

We had to set certain meeting pulses internally to make sure we were communicating. So, we weren't overlapping or ignoring a corner of the building, which you can sometimes do, and it's 1.2 million square feet. I think there were a lot of things we learned internally through this process that actually help us now on some of our larger projects.

 

00;22;15;26 - 00;22;18;10

DP

How long was it until you guys implemented Blue Beam?

 

00;22;18;12 - 00;22;25;03

MW

It really like started, I think with Front and York and now the whole office is on it and we really do all of our markups that way.

 

00;22;25;11 - 00;22;26;08

DP

That's really cool.

 

00;22;26;10 - 00;22;34;23

MW

QAQC reviews and Blue Beam’s, probably the new CAD, I would say for a lot of us, because it is a very good markup and measuring tool.

 

00;22;34;29 - 00;22;35;24

DP

Yes.

 

00;22;35;26 - 00;22;39;02

MW

And it's cloud based or it can be. So, you can work in a big group.

 

00;22;39;03 - 00;22;40;26

DP

So, you can go in and draw in 2D.

 

00;22;41;02 - 00;22;41;20

MW

Yep.

 

00;22;41;22 - 00;22;44;21

DP

Wow, that's pretty cool. We've been using Procore.

 

00;22;44;28 - 00;22;50;07

MW

Yeah. We also use Procore. New Line Structures did and that was tremendously helpful.

 

00;22;50;07 - 00;22;53;05

DP

Yeah, for project management, it's been great. Super helpful.

 

00;22;53;09 - 00;23;20;08

MW

Yeah. And just the process of using Navisworks and Revit is basically - Navisworks is the software that helps you look at Revit and really find those clashes in the field. This was the easiest CA project, maybe not easy for all of the staff, but in terms of the leadership, we weren't running into big problems. It was very smooth. We were finding the problems in the model in the field. So that was great.

 

00;23;20;11 - 00;23;25;19

DP

How many drawings does a job like this have? Like what does a construction document set look like?

 

00;23;25;19 - 00;23;27;09

MW

Yeah, I think about 500 drawings.

 

00;23;27;09 - 00;23;28;00

DP

Oh, my goodness gracious.

 

00;23;28;03 - 00;23;31;27

MW

Yeah, something like that. Three or four volumes, you know. Lots of trades.

 

00;23;32;01 - 00;23;34;22

DP

Wow. And construction was three years.

 

00;23;34;25 - 00;23;35;15

MW

That’s about right.

 

00;23;35;20 - 00;23;37;19

DP

Wow. So how long has it been complete?

 

00;23;37;26 - 00;23;44;22

MW

I think it's been complete release since the summer. Last summer? I could be off by a month or two.

 

00;23;44;29 - 00;23;46;26

DP

Are they happy? Is it full?

 

00;23;46;29 - 00;23;53;06

MW

I don't know if it's full, but it's very well occupied. I do know that there's 16 penthouses are all sold.

 

00;23;53;09 - 00;23;54;08

DP

Wow.

 

00;23;54;13 - 00;24;12;23

MW

The views are spectacular all around. So, I think maybe they wish they built more larger apartments because really when this was landing, I mean, seems like the trend started to go to larger apartments. With COVID and everything. A lot of one-bedrooms, but they're really nice sized one-bedrooms, you know.

 

00;24;13;00 - 00;24;13;26

DP

Yeah. The photographs are beautiful.

 

00;24;13;29 - 00;24;28;00

MW

Yeah. And the amenities are - we've had so many developers and other people touring the amenities on the eighth floor. There's 15,000 square feet of amenities up there and they're spectacular. And a couple of swimming pools.

 

00;24;28;03 - 00;24;28;25

DP

Oh, my gosh.

 

00;24;28;26 - 00;24;31;13

MW

On the roof. I think that's a real selling point.

 

00;24;31;15 - 00;24;39;12

DP

So, one last question before you go. Personal question, What's your favorite part of the job and what's your least favorite part of the job as an architect?

 

00;24;39;14 - 00;25;01;17

MW

Well, I like to solve problems with teams. I really like large projects because you get to work with large teams and it's just really fun. We have a lot of people that we have a lunchroom at, at MA and we have people that sit around and do the New York Times crossword puzzle together every day, and we just like solving problems together. So that's my favorite part.

 

00;25;01;24 - 00;25;05;05

DP

Yeah, that's great. You don't have to tell me what you don't like.

 

00;25;05;07 - 00;25;10;04

MW

What I don't like, I think would be obvious, which is the stress and the headaches. And, you know...

 

00;25;10;04 - 00;25;13;09

DP

Yes. I can only imagine on projects that are this big.

 

00;25;13;09 - 00;25;18;24

MW

Right. Running into things that you didn't expect in the field. Those are the things that I like the least.

 

00;25;18;24 - 00;25;23;10

DP

Yeah. My boss used to say, “it's always the thing you don't see coming that gets you.”

 

00;25;23;11 - 00;25;24;03

MW

That's right.

 

00;25;24;03 - 00;25;37;09

DP

It really is. It's not the stuff you worry about all the time. It's the one thing you just never saw coming. Well, Michelle Wagner, thank you very much for your time today. Where can people go to find out more about you and Morris Adjmi Architects?

 

00;25;37;12 - 00;25;40;14

MW

I’d suggest our website, which is ma.com

 

00;25;40;16 - 00;25;50;01

DP

All right. You got it. Well, super simple. And thank you very much. It's been great. Front and York’s gorgeous. Thank you very much.