TRANSCRIPT

 

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;13

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;15 - 00;00;28;26

Christa Waring (CW)

It's only exterior work. Right now, we've just mobilized to start the brick restoration. We had great assistants getting a perfect match to the original white glazed brick that they have there. You want to make sure when you're doing this much brickwork that your spackle is right, and it doesn't stand out in the end. And Landmarks approves the work very easily.

 

00;00;29;03 - 00;03;30;29

DP

This is my guest, Christa Waring. I'll share more about her shortly in this episode from The Design Vault. We highlight Christa's project in New York City, 650 Park Avenue. 650 Park Avenue is located in the Upper East Side Historic District, built in 1963 and designed by Emery Roth and Sons Architects. It's a 21-story apartment building with a white glazed brick facade and setbacks above the 16th floor.

The base of the building maintains the building line of Park Avenue. Recent façade examinations revealed a deficiency in the wall tie system that connects the face masonry to the backup concrete block masonry. CTA designed a program of facade repairs that include face masonry pinning in addition to the restoration of all shelf angles across the façades. The original construction features have finished glazed edge over all the window lintels, which has an impressive impact on the esthetic of the building. Thus, the project entails an extensive masonry rebuild where matching the existing brick is of paramount importance.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat, and this is Design Vault.

Christa Waring is a principal at CTA Architects, P.C. in New York City. She's been with the firm since 1994. She received her Bachelor of Architecture from Pratt Institute. She's passionate about sustainable design and has a keen understanding of building code and zoning issues.

Christa drives her office's environmental research and implementation of green technologies, which includes adherence to lead and certified passive House design standards. She's worked on some of CTA's largest projects, including the 90,000 square foot mixed use Lower East Side Girls Club, Arabella 101, and the Grand Street Guild. Her recent projects include the award-winning exterior Preservation of the Cast Iron Facade at 54 Bond Street.

She also recently oversaw the completion of the conversion of an illegal SRO into low-income housing on the Upper West Side. One of her current projects includes a building rehabilitation project that's part of the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority's Retrofit New York pilot program. Christa taught at Pratt Institute and lectured for the New York City Urban Green Council and the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association.

She's also a member of the New York City Department of Buildings Construction Requirement and Materials Committee, and the New York City Energy Conservation Code, Commercial Advisory Committee. So welcome, Christin. It's nice to have you with us today. So, tell us a little bit about CTA architects, P.C. in New York City. So where are you guys located in New York. What's the size of the firm? How long have you been around and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;31;02 - 00;04;46;14

CW

Well, thank you for having me today. CTA Architects. We're located down in the Flatiron District, just a couple of blocks from the Flatiron. We have 60 plus employees at this point, including support staff. We do a variety of work in New York City. All of our work is focused in the five boroughs, frankly, mostly Manhattan. We do have Brooklyn and Queens, some in Staten Island, a couple in the Bronx.

But we originally started out in 1987 or so. We came into being around the time that the first facade laws came into effect. And so, it was something that we naturally fell into. And we have been doing that work ever since I've been there since 1994. Our founding partner, Doug Cutsogeorge was my professor at Pratt and hired me as an intern in my second year there, and I have been there ever since.

So, I was an intern. I typed envelopes that when we had typewriters, I fax things and then went out and did field measurements and climbed around on ladders and hung on scaffolds. And 29 years later, still there. And I've been a partner since 2014.

 

00;04;46;17 - 00;04;49;16

DP

Real quickly, tell me about these façade laws. What is that?

 

00;04;49;23 - 00;05;55;20

CW

You know, my business partner Dan, could give you, like, every single date and iteration, but I'll give you the gist, which is that terracotta fell off a building at Columbia University and that initiated a city response, which was at that time called Local Law ten, which mandated that all buildings over six stories have to be inspected every five years by a registered professional and a report submitted to the Department of Buildings.

So, at that point, all of the buildings submitted on the same day, February 21st, every five years, and as the law developed, it keeps developing based on things that have happened in the city. At that point, it was just the street elevation and you just had to look at it with binoculars. Now it's the entire building and you have to look at it from a hanging scaffold or a bucket truck. And depending on the construction type, you have to open probes through the face masonry to expose what's in the cavity.

 

00;05;55;25 - 00;05;59;20

DP

Wow. So, the incident at Columbia was that in the early eighties?

 

00;05;59;21 - 00;06;09;27

CW

That was in the early to mid-eighties. So first it was Local ten and then it was local Law 11. And now it's called the Façade Inspection Safety Program.

 

00;06;10;05 - 00;06;14;05

DP

So, it sounds like a good thing. They're now inspecting buildings for this very issue.

 

00;06;14;12 - 00;06;25;23

CW

Right. And now they broke up the buildings. There are three sub cycles, so not every report for every building in the city is due on the same day. So now it's broken up. So that makes it a little easier.

 

00;06;25;26 - 00;06;32;12

DP

So, tell us a little bit about yourself. So how long have you been a practicing architect and what's your role in the office as principal?

 

00;06;32;19 - 00;06;53;26

CW

I got my license in 2003, But, you know, obviously I was working for the nine years before that. Currently, as principal, I do a lot of things. I wear a lot of hats. I yell at contractors, I hold clients’ hands and bring in work and put out fires where I need to.

 

00;06;53;28 - 00;06;55;02

DP

Do you like your job?

 

00;06;55;04 - 00;07;08;05

CW

I do. It is challenging. It's a lot. You have to really want to buy into it and invest. My partners, I've been with them almost 30 years. They're family and it's a good place to be. They're good partners.

 

00;07;08;12 - 00;07;11;15

DP

That sounds like a really interesting niche market.

 

00;07;11;17 - 00;07;33;01

CW

It is. And it's funny because, you know, there are a few firms in the city that do this, and we all know each other, and then we all get offshoots from employees have left and hung their own shingle and proceeded to sell focus and exterior restoration work. I would say it's about 70% of our work is exterior restoration.

 

00;07;33;06 - 00;07;38;04

DP

Gotcha. Let's talk about 650 Park Avenue. So how did you guys get the project?

 

00;07;38;06 -00;08;21;11

CW

So, I think, like everything in my history at CTA, it was word of mouth. It's kind of a tangled web. So, we use a consulting engineer who was working on a project out and Garden City, Long Island, and they needed an architect. So, he referred me to the owner, and the owner liked us and then brought us on to some of the more buildings that he owns in Brooklyn.

And then they were going around and around with their facade issues at the building that he lives in. And so, then he brought me in over there. So, it was all this chain. I always say, you never know who you're talking to when you're going to run into them again, who they are, who they end up being. To you and professionally. So that's how we got brought into the building.

 

00;08;21;18 - 00;08;29;07

DP

That's really interesting. So, could you give us a little history of the location? So, what was there prior to 1963, if you know?

 

00;08;29;13 - 00;08;43;23

CW

I do not know what was there prior to 1963, but it is a typical white glazed brick building of that era with the wedding cake setbacks. Also, during that construction period, the kind of problems that you find typically in that construction.

 

00;08;43;26 - 00;08;50;06

DP

So, the scope of the project then was only exterior work. Do you guys too any renovation work on the interior?

 

00;08;50;13 - 00;09;05;21

CW

It's only exterior work right now. We've just mobilized to start the brick restoration and we are going to visit with landmarks, redoing the ground floor, the base of the building as well.

 

00;09;05;23 - 00;09;07;20

DP

So, the project is currently underway.

 

00;09;07;26 - 00;09;08;24

CW

It's just started.

 

00;09;08;24 - 00;09;09;06

DP

Just getting rolling.

 

00;09;09;06 - 00;09;11;04

CW

Just getting rolling. It's exciting.

 

00;09;11;11 - 00;09;18;05

DP

So stylistically, the setbacks on those building that's due to the new laws in New York City at the time.

 

00;09;18;09 - 00;09;21;25

CW

Yes, those were due to zoning.

 

00;09;21;28 - 00;09;35;22

DP

Project restrictions - so when you guys are working on an exterior facade, what are the rules of the road? How do you guys end up doing a project like that? I would imagine that the exterior is all scaffolding at some point. What does the city make the contractor do?

 

00;09;35;24 - 00;11;06;28

CW

Okay, so first we started this project with, I would say, upwards of a hundred probes through the face masonry to really define what the issues were, because there was some debate over the extent of the repairs that were necessary. So, I spent a lot of time on the scaffold in the summer of 2022 looking at all the probes and really identifying the same repetitive problem over and over again.

We're just getting mobilized with hanging the rigs and part of all that entails is we had to file drawings at the Department of Buildings to get our permits and landmarks. Landmarks has to approve first, and we had great assistance getting a perfect match to the original white glazed brick that they have there. You would be surprised at how many iterations of white glazed brick there can be, but you want to make sure when you're doing this much brickwork that your speckle is right and it doesn't stand out in the end.

And Landmarks approves the work very easily. We didn't have any issues. I submitted to them the chip that we had custom made for the building. So that was great. To mobilize, the contractor has to pull scaffold permits, so he has to file with the city to install hanging scaffolds. There was already a sidewalk shed in front of the building to protect the pedestrians on the street. It's a corner building, so a lot of sidewalk shed that's been there for a while.

 

00;11;07;06 - 00;11;11;19

DP

So, let's back up. How did they know they had a problem? There were bricks falling off the building.

 

00;11;11;26 - 00;11;24;06

CW

It originally came up in a small exterior restoration project before our time that someone identified that they had a problem, and then it just kept developing from there.

 

00;11;24;10 - 00;11;29;05

DP

And how many sides were that exposed? Two or three. I understand it's a corner. Does it have a back side?

 

00;11;29;10 - 00;11;35;18

CW

Actually, it's L-shaped in the back. It has a number of large façades. It has the two large corner facades.

 

00;11;35;20 - 00;11;39;26

DP

So, the building's L-shaped and plan to then open up to a courtyard and-

 

00;11;39;26 - 00;11;40;05

CW

It does.

 

00;11;40;06 - 00;11;44;26

DP

Okay. How long does the project then take? Start to finish on a building this size?

 

00;11;44;28 - 00;12;12;26

CW

So, we're looking at completion in February of 2025. So, it's going to be about a year and a half on the ground. We have to install all of the pins. We have to pin the face masonry back to the backup block, which is a retrofit wall tie and first they pin and then we're going to strip all the shelf angles above and below the shelf angle and address the flashing and repaint the shelf angles.

 

00;12;12;26 - 00;12;22;12

CW

And sometimes we'll have to replace some of the angles and rebuild the masonry. And we have some parapet work to do, parapets that are not in good shape.

 

00;12;22;14 - 00;12;35;16

DP

So just so I understand that. So, they put up the scaffolding. Then you end up spending a bunch of time out there. I would imagine your partners are also out there. What I'm getting at is who identifies the structural issue? Who's the expert? Is it the architect?

 

00;12;35;24 - 00;12;36;27

CW

Oh yes, I did that. Yep.

 

00;12;37;03 - 00;12;45;06

DP

Interesting. You then document those issues in drawing form, like two dimensional drawings or 3D drawings and present them to somebody.

 

00;12;45;11 - 00;13;13;02

CW

Yes. Two dimensional drawings and photographs. I think the photos really speak a thousand words on this one. I presented it to the board. It's a condominium, so they have a board of directors and we met with them. I went over what I saw and the resident manager there was also very helpful, and he understands the situation and saw some of the probes that were open, that were closer to the ground and could confirm what we were telling them.

 

00;13;13;05 - 00;13;25;13

DP

So, you put together a set of drawings and is that priced like a typical architectural set of drawings by a GC? Is it then bid out and the lowest bidder is chosen? What's that process look like?

 

00;13;25;19 - 00;14;52;03

CW

So, we put together a set of drawings and construction details because we had opened so many probes, there were no questions. A lot of times when you work on a building and there are no existing drawings, which is probably 90% of the time for us, you're making assumptions about how things were built in the period of the building, right?

So inevitably you open it up and there's a surprise, sometimes a minor surprise, sometimes not so minor surprise. But this one, because we had had so many probes opened, we were able to really pin down what was behind the wall. So, we put together elevations, construction details and written specifications. We put them out to bid like the architects having a niche market in exterior restoration in New York City, there are also contractors who are a niche market for exterior restoration in New York City.

So, we bid to five or six or seven of those guys, the majority of whom I've known for many, many years. You know, we all work on the same stuff, and they select the bidder. Because it's private, it doesn't have to go to the lowest bidder. You know, we usually have an interview process so that the board can meet the contractor and get their feel for if they're a good match, that they're going to be a good match with building staff. So we go through the bidding process and then the contract is awarded and they do all that legal stuff on the side that I don't have to worry about.

00;14;52;08 - 00;14;58;04

DP

So, you guys do two dimensional drawings, details, any 3-D stuff? Not really necessary.

 

00;14;58;04 - 00;15;00;03

CW

Not really necessary for this type.

 

00;15;00;03 - 00;15;03;21

DP

And how many people end up working on one of your projects like this one?

 

00;15;03;24 - 00;15;11;00

CW

So, on this project, it was myself, our project manager, Freddy, and his staff member Arefa.

 

00;15;11;06 - 00;15;24;25

DP

So, let's get into the details. How does this work? Like, how do you do what you're doing? Are you just replacing bricks in specific areas? Are you replacing entire facades? And what does that detail look like?

 

00;15;24;28 - 00;15;33;29

CW

So, in the scope that we settled on, we are replacing the bricks along every shelf, angled the building, and this building has shelf angles that every floor.

 

00;15;34;02 - 00;15;36;11

DP

Explained to us what that is, a shelf angle.

 

00;15;36;13 - 00;16;11;02

CW

This is a concrete framed building. So, it has a concrete structure, and a shelf angle is a continuous steel lintel basically that holds up the masonry at every floor and it's bolted back to the concrete slab at regular intervals. There are shims and bolts, and it holds the slab in there. It holds the brick at every floor, provides the gravity support, and the wall ties provide lateral support. So, the shelf angles that this building were in very good condition. There are a few issues here and there, but nothing terrible.

 

00;16;11;02 - 00;16;11;20

DP

They’re all steel?

 

00;16;11;25 - 00;16;18;08

CW

They are steel like three by three, 4x4 angles. Some of them were shallow. So, we're making them a little deeper.

 

00;16;18;14 - 00;16;20;04

DP

Were they galvanized or painted?

 

00;16;20;09 - 00;16;46;03

CW

The original ones were not. They were painted. But when we go back, we go back with galvanized and stainless-steel bolts, and then we replace the shims and the bolts, obviously. And where we find a length of deteriorated shelf angle, we will replace that. We have an allowance for that in the contract to deal with that because there were some areas higher up on the building where they get, you know, more weather exposure that we're in worse condition.

 

00;16;46;05 - 00;16;49;10

DP

Tell us a little bit about the brick. How did you get the matches?

 

00;16;49;17 - 00;18;25;21

CW

Fortunately, this building hasn't had any huge projects on it, so it was fairly easy to identify which white glazed brick was the original brick, which was good because there were maybe three different bricks on it, different color, white base. You know, one was a little pink, one was a little white, or some had a brown speckle, some had a fine speckle, some had a varied speckle.

So, because there are so many setbacks, we were able to go to somebody's terrace where there hadn't been any work high up on the building because at the base at stone. So, I'm not comparing it at the base of the building. We also walked along the sidewalk shed because that gets you up higher. And we selected - we were like, okay, this is the original brick.

And then I reached out to King's. They are brick distributors in New York City, and the folks there were super helpful and made me all sorts of custom samples and they have little brick chips and brought the brick chips up to site and went through everything with the resident manager and decided on our brick. And then you mentioned in your intro the finished underside of the brick at all of the window lintels.

So, when you have a shelf angle you don't see in the field of the masonry, you don't see the underside, the clay body of the brick. But over the lentils you can see like the little yellow clay body of the brick. And I really got into the fact that it was finished on the underside. I think it's just a little bit like a perfect little thing that I really liked. So, we asked for that as well.

 

00;18;25;23 - 00;18;29;11

DP

Is that like a space that's about a half hedge, three quarters of an inch wide?

 

00;18;29;14 - 00;18;43;10

CW

Yeah, it's about a half an inch. If you have the right amount of bearing. And so, they put the glaze on the underside. So, the Masons have to be aware, obviously, when they're rebuilding to look for that. I'm sure I'll catch some in the beginning before they get used to it.

 

00;18;43;18 - 00;18;45;13

DP

Is it going to be hard to find a good mason?

 

00;18;45;19 - 00;18;51;10

CW

We have the contractor on board, and he has good masons on hand, so I'm not very worried about that.

 

00;18;51;16 - 00;19;01;08

DP

So, did you guys learn anything interesting through the construction process, through the inquiry process, anything unusual, Anything you'd never seen before?

 

00;19;01;14 - 00;20;11;10

CW

Not anything I've never seen before, thank goodness. Because those are never good surprises. I was happy, given the lack of wall ties, that I was happy to find that the backup masonry was still in good condition. We didn't have to worry about the backup masonry because that can also be an issue. We decided to pin the columns, which I was surprised actually worked because I had never pinned columns before because you're pinning into the concrete.

So, when you do the retrofit wall tie, you can call the manufacturers rep and he'll come out and do a test. He'll drill in the wall tie, and then he has like a crank to see what the force is, to see if the tie actually holds. And I had originally planned to strip all of the column locations in the building and rebuild that as well.

But on another project of mine, we had had pull tests done for retrofit pins on that building and they went into the columns, and I was like, wait, what? I didn't think that could happen. So, we called them out. We had had him do the tests in the field, in the masonry before, but we had him come back and do the pull tests and the columns and the pins drilled right in. So, it was great news.

 

00;20;11;17 - 00;20;15;13

DP

So, these are columns on the exterior facade behind the brick masonry.

 

00;20;15;16 - 00;20;31;04

CW

Right there, directly behind one wythe of brick behind the masonry. So, the backup concrete block goes right to the column. And then if you were to take all the face masonry off the building, you would see a grid of the columns with the backup block in between.

 

00;20;31;06 - 00;20;38;00

DP

And all the residents there. Do they get to live through the construction process?

 

00;20;38;02 - 00;21;04;06

CW

They do...Yeah. It's never pretty. It's just not. I feel bad, but there is going to be a lot of saw cutting, which is dusty. There is going to be a lot of drilling, which is loud. So, I hope that people at 650 Park, if you're listening, maybe you go back to working in the office for a while. What we do is loud and not anything that anyone wants to have to hear all day long if they're home.

 

00;21;04;08 - 00;21;08;02

DP

Back to the building for a second. I'm really surprised there were no drawings.

 

00;21;08;03 - 00;21;13;06

CW

We did have some the building super. The resident manager had some drawings.

 

00;21;13;08 - 00;21;21;10

DP

Yeah. What's always amazing. I mean, to go back further than that, people-built buildings from so little information, right? I mean, it's crazy.

 

00;21;21;14 - 00;22;05;26

CW

Yeah. So, we didn't really find any wall details. We had elevation drawings and then there's always elevation drawings, probably some plans and lots of plumbing drawings and mechanical drawings, which I don't need and are never accurate because they never built it that way anyway. And it was sixty years ago. So, lots of things have changed. So, we did go through the resident manager's giant bin of drawings in the beginning and got what we could use and it was helpful.

I mean, it helped us locate all of the columns along the facade, right? We wouldn't have had that if we didn't have the original drawings. It would have been more of a guess. But like in this project I said was knock wood a lot of guesswork so far.

 

00;22;05;29 - 00;22;16;02

DP

Yeah. And you talked a little bit about existing conditions and drawings. Is that something that you still do, do some existing condition sketches when you're out there and then somebody'll draw it up for you or.

 

00;22;16;09 - 00;22;56;00

CW

Oh absolutely. That's part of the process. You know, I went to site one day with my notebook and my pen and the contractor said, well, the girl who came last time had an iPad. And I said, I don't have an iPad. I have a notebook and a pen. They tried to give me an iPad, but I'm just more comfortable sketching it.

I feel like there is a connection between pencil and paper that makes you understand what you're looking at and what you're drawing. I don't know. When you go to architecture school, you don't really know anything when you start. And I started to understand through drawing, and I went to school in the era where there was no computer drafting.

 

00;22;56;00 - 00;22;56;16

DP

Yeah, I experienced the same thing.

 

00;22;56;21 - 00;23;13;25

CW

Yeah, I feel like there's a real connection and I think, you know, a lot of times there's an assumption that the computer program is the be all, end all. Not that just a tool and people don't really sometimes don't understand what it is that they're drawing because the computer's creating the detail.

 

00;23;13;28 - 00;23;15;14

DP

They miss it in the learning process.

 

00;23;15;19 - 00;23;35;24

CW

Yeah. And because we do what we do, that's not something that they teach. They don't teach that at school. I actually didn't have to take construction documents in school because I got credit for my job because I was doing actual construction documents. I worked full time. I went to school part time. So, it took me a very, very long time to graduate.

 

00;23;35;26 - 00;23;37;09

DP

Wow, that's impressive.

 

00;23;37;11 - 00;23;37;22

CW

Yeah.

 

00;23;37;29 - 00;23;42;20

DP

Christa, was sustainability an issue for you guys when you took on the project?

 

00;23;42;27 - 00;24;46;20

CW

Unfortunately, with this project, given the parameters of the scope, we could not really accomplish the integration of additional insulation in the cavity or something to that effect, moving forward, but in our office, we really focus on the concept of maintaining existing buildings and doing rehabilitations as sustainable practice. We have a sustainability coordinator that we brought on about two years ago.

She's fantastic. She keeps us honest. She's always regulating things, making sure we're composting, taking things out of the garbage can and putting them in the compost. We did a full led switch over on our lighting in the office pushed by her. She's changed our specs, you know, she'll give me and my partner Dan markups on the specifications with suggestions and we integrate that into our specifications. We do have a sustainable component in every job and some jobs, we can take it to a whole other level.

 

00;24;46;27 - 00;25;03;03

DP

Yeah, it would seem to me that have to go to the interior, right, and rip out all of the plasterwork and drywall and then reinsulate. So, I'm curious, a building like that, it gets a new facade, but it's not going to really change the R-value of the walls and it's still probably going to be a cold building.

 

00;25;03;06 - 00;25;28;21

CW

Right, there is that. And then a lot of times people say, well, I can put in these super-duper windows. And I'm like, Yeah, but your walls are not insulated at all. And you have a PTAC unit, which is basically a hole in the wall. So, you have to look at the balance of how to accomplish what it is you need to accomplish. But we look at the materials and the VOCs, and the location where things are made as well plays into sustainability.

 

00;25;28;21 - 00;25;29;29

DP

Yeah, it is what it is.

 

00;25;30;00 -00;26;06;06

CW

Yeah. I was on the Energy Code review Committee, as you mentioned, the advisory committee, but one of the reasons I signed up for that is because it does not answer existing buildings to the extent that I think it should, given that it's the New York City Energy Code and there's still some gaps in there. But, you know, we're conserving these buildings, we’re restoring them, we're not tearing down and building new ones.

And so that's good for the environment. But then how can we make a realistic energy code that you can apply to all of these existing conditions that we can't just change?

 

00;26;06;09 - 00;26;09;13

DP

I think it's wonderful. It's something most people don't think about.

 

00;26;09;20 - 00;26;38;04

CW

They don't know. And I lectured for Urban Green on the Energy Code. I gave a scintillating seven-hour long lecture. I ran out of words, though, during COVID, I couldn't do it on a screen. So, I tell my kids I ran out of words because there are a lot of words, but I think even sometimes the people that I was lecturing to depending on, you know, like you said, a normal architecture firm isn't thinking about this stuff because they're not dealing with existing building. They're dealing with a plot of land.

 

00;26;38;06 - 00;26;59;27

DP

So, Christa, you've been an architect for some time. Based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for either your younger self or young architects coming up? Because what you do is a little different - the 70% of the work that you guys do - is really very different from what many architects end up doing when they get out of school.

 

00;27;00;05 - 00;27;33;04

CW

One word of advice is not to be too married to the thought of what you think you want to do and to try different things, and you might really find something that surprises you, that you do. I've found along the way I've done some projects I would never imagine when I was in school that I would do something like that, and I really enjoyed it.

When you go to school, you have a vision, I'm going to do this. I want to do this. And if you just open yourself up to different projects and you might find something that really makes an impression on you.

 

00;27;33;11 - 00;27;35;23

DP

Yeah. What clearly worked for you?

 

00;27;35;25 - 00;28;13;05

CW

Yeah. And to my younger self, I don't know that I have advised my younger self because I don't know how much I've changed, but I always felt like if you're doing what you enjoy and you're with people that you enjoy doing it with, then little things that might be irksome to contemporary youth don't really register. They're not important in the long run, and you have to see the big picture.

I mean, did I think when I was hired, did I think when I was 23, someday I’ll own the company? No, I didn't think that, but it happened. So you never know. Hard work and a lot of luck is what gets you where you want to be.

 

00;28;13;10 - 00;28;19;29

DP

Christa, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about CTA architects and yourself?

 

00;28;20;02 - 00;28;44;21

CW

We have a website. It's www.ctaarchitects, all one-word dotcom where we showcase all of our finest work. Sometimes people look at our website and get a little, oh that's very fancy, but I always say it's your portfolio, it's your best, but there's everything in there. There's all this stuff that we do that doesn't make it to the portfolio level that's necessary.

 

00;28;44;24 - 00;28;46;15

DP

Well, thank you very much. Been great to have you.

 

00;28;46;19 - 00;28;51;09

CW

Thank you for having me. It was nice talking.

TRANSCRIPT

 

 

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;13

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;16 - 00;00;20;14

Shane Neufeld (SN)

I think what was special about this project was that the clients were able to generate a lot of input that forced me out of my comfort zone, think about things in new ways, and take some of the systems and strategies I had in place, but to create something completely different than had been done before.

 

00;00;20;20 - 00;02;47;11

DP

This is my guest, Shane Neufeld. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we highlight Shane's project in Brooklyn, New York, called The Z House. The Z house, named for the shape of its stair is a renovation, providing a unique model for the urban domestic experience. At the Project Center is a new switchback stair that integrates the house vertically and horizontally, carving out the existing structure in order to shape dynamic sightlines that connect inhabitants in new ways.

 

The stairs drama is heightened by the placement of large windows punctuating the rear facade. These allow the vertical space to open to the exterior directing views from the stair through the house and to the yard beyond. Descending from the rear of the parlor floor is a smaller stair slotted between a steel guardrail and oak millwork. This connects the living room to the new horizontal additions below.

 

Here, the added square footage accommodates the kitchen and dining room in a single dramatic double height space that visually unites the rear yard and the parlor floor above. A green roof located above the garden level helps to buffer sightlines and cultivates a natural intimacy for the residents inside.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Shane Neufeld is an architect and artist born in Brooklyn, New York.

 

He received his B.A. in Fine Arts from Amherst College, where he studied painting and literature and his master's degree from the Yale School of Architecture. He is a registered architect and the founder of Light and Air Architecture and Design in Brooklyn. The firm's work has been widely published and completed projects include the Z House, Switchback House, Sterling Place, Skylight House and Nassau Street Loft.

 

After graduate school, Shane spent three years with Rogers Marvel Architects in New York, working on a variety of projects that focused on urban, residential, commercial as well as institutional architecture. Additionally, he was a project architect at Christopher Fernyhough Architecture. Shane is also served as a faculty member at the New Jersey Institute of Technology's School of Architecture. So welcome, Shane.

 

Nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Light and Air Architecture in Brooklyn, New York. So obviously you're located in Brooklyn. What's the size of your firm and what type of work do you do?

 

00;02;47;13 - 00;03;42;19

SN

It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Our office is 2 to 3 people. It varies from project to project. We do mainly residential work in Brooklyn, although we have done apartments as well in the city. We're trying to get beyond residential for institutional projects, so we're very open minded about the kind of work we want to do.

 

But we see a lot of potential spatially, in particular with residential work and in townhouses here in New York. For us, the townhouse is rich with opportunities to explore, and in a city that tends to maximize every square foot, we kind of take a more artful approach where we want places that people want to spend time in rather than maximize.

 

And so we pursue clients and tell clients this off the bat so they know what they're getting into. And it's a different type of work in our mind than what new people normally see and people are used to.

 

00;03;42;21 - 00;03;44;11

DP

So how long has a firm been around?

 

00;03;44;17 - 00;03;55;15

SN

We were founded in 2017. I founded the office on my own house, the Switchback House, which was a derelict brownstone in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, and I used that as a starting point.

 

00;03;55;20 - 00;03;59;01

DP

So that's your home? Yes. Oh, that's so great. It's beautiful.

 

00;03;59;05 - 00;03;59;19

SN

Thanks.

 

00;03;59;25 - 00;04;01;28

DP

It must have been a great project for you.

 

00;04;02;04 - 00;04;28;12

SN

It was intense. I was working still at an office, so I was drawing the plans at night and eventually left my job to work on it full time during construction. It was an incredible learning experience. I hadn't really worked with Townhouse in New York before. I'd work on the Louisville Museum of Arts and Craft, which was a masonry building that would use steel. So I was familiar with the kind of means and methods are getting into, but not in Brooklyn itself.

 

00;04;28;14 - 00;04;32;13

DP

So you have a family and you all lived through construction.

 

00;04;32;16 - 00;04;45;05

SN

I actually had a loft in Bed-Stuy, what I call Home Depot Heights, which wasn't so nice at the time. It's loud, but we lived there at the time. My son wasn't born yet, so it worked for us.

 

00;04;45;07 - 00;04;54;03

DP

So tell us a little bit about the history of the location, the building. How long has it been there? Was it always three stories?

 

00;04;54;06 - 00;05;33;01

SN

Yeah. So with the Switchback House, my work got out there pretty fast and a young couple came up to me interested in exploring ideas of a new house for themselves that wasn't traditional, that had aspects and qualities that they saw in the Switchback House. And so they had purchased a derelict brownstone in Clinton Hill. It was two stories and a basement, so I guess that's three.

 

But it can be confusing, but parlor with one above. Basically it had a kind of 1960s faux concrete facade at the time. It was split up into multiple units. They had a big vision for transforming this house entirely from the get-go.

 

00;05;33;03 - 00;05;39;14

DP

So let's back up a little bit. So you explained how your office got the project. Did you know the clients?

 

00;05;39;16 - 00;06;31;22

SN

I did not. And so that's something that I've tried to be, you know, getting clients in architecture is very, very difficult. It's very much word of mouth. Obviously, people are spending lots of money. They want to work with someone they're comfortable with, someone they know will provide a product that they're happy with and that works. But it's a catch 22 at the very beginning.

 

Those connections don't exist. And so what I've really tried to do, and I think this originates from my background as a painter, is that I try to make work that's evocative and I want people to see the images. I want them to say, Hey, that's what I like, that's what I want, and kind of bypass a lot of the other stuff.

 

That's the hope at least. And so I think thus far I've been able to do that. And so they saw my projects online and had that reaction. And through a series of interviews and get togethers and walkthroughs, eventually they felt comfortable with me through other recommendations, obviously, as well.

 

00;06;31;26 - 00;06;36;06

DP

So what was the scope of the project? What were the clients’ programmatic requirements?

 

00;06;36;09 - 00;07;54;17

SN

That's pretty interesting as well. So I mean, there was this idea early on that we sketched of a kind of grand public floor on the stoop level. Basically, they knew they wanted to add to the building horizontally. We weren't yet sure about vertically, but the original building, it was wider than most townhouses, 22 and a half feet, but it was only 32 feet deep.

 

So the addition was necessary in order to function, basically. Then the idea of the living space on the parlor floor and with bedrooms above and originally, as I've done in other projects, I thought of the adult level on the second floor with the kids above. They pushed me to invert this, which created a very interesting programmatic and spatial result.

 

Basically with the vertical addition on the rear, you end up having a terrace on the top floor off the master bedroom. I think what was special about this project was that the clients were able to generate a lot of input that forced me out of my comfort zone, think about things in new ways and take some of the systems and strategies I had in place, but to create something completely different than had been done before.

 

So in that respect, when I first started this project, I thought about it as, you know, Switchback House 2.0. I like this idea of the Switchback as a typology that offers a multitude of spatial outcomes depending on the family's needs.

 

00;07;54;19 - 00;08;04;07

DP

So it can't be easy getting a new addition done in Brooklyn, right? I mean, what do you go through in terms of project restrictions, zoning codes, etc.?

 

00;08;04;10 - 00;08;27;29

SN

That's a very good question. I mean, luckily this building wasn't landmarked, so we didn't have to go through landmarks review. We were given kind of free range to do what we wanted. But a horizontal and vertical submission is significant. It requires an old one change of use. We went from a two family or three family to a single family.

 

It was significant time for approvals. We did not do SOE. We we didn't dig out the cellar in the rear.

 

00;08;28;02 - 00;08;30;18

DP

So the building plan, straight rectangle?

 

00;08;30;20 - 00;08;47;05

SN

It's actually staggered slightly in plan and the addition and that has to do with the lot line itself. So you can see that in the kitchen, the area where the sink and window are that that actually pushes out slightly beyond where the sliding doors are that defined the end of the dining room space.

 

00;08;47;11 - 00;08;48;12

DP

Do they have a backyard?

 

00;08;48;13 - 00;08;49;15

SN

They do.

 

00;08;50;39 - 00;08;52;12

DP

So they were encroaching on it when you put the addition on?

 

00;08;53;29 - 00;08;54;03

SN

Slightly but 30 feet to the rear is the code.

 

00;08;54;09 - 00;08;56;11

DP

So they still have a backyard. They've got room.

 

00;08;56;18 - 00;08;57;25

SN

Oh, yes, significant room.

 

00;08;58;02 - 00;09;04;27

DP

So how long did the planning process take? City Review design to construction? Like start to finish? How long were you on the job?

 

00;09;05;03 - 00;09;17;15

SN

Well, I started the project. I started designing think it was the end of 2018. It took about a year to get started and the project itself took another two years to finish. Year and a half. Two years.

 

00;09;17;15 - 00;09;18;07

DP

And pandemic.

 

00;09;18;11 - 00;09;34;10

SN

Yes, through that as well, through price increases on plywood and windows that took over a year to arrive, miserable at times. But a truly wonderful client who trusted us trusted the process, communicated well, and we really got through it together.

 

00;09;34;15 - 00;09;41;02

DP

Yeah, a common story for we architects. I mean, everything took longer, cost more. It was insanity.

 

00;09;41;09 - 00;10;38;09

SN

Yeah. I mean, I think what's really interesting for me about this project was that this addition that we had, we wanted it to feel completely different than the front of the building. We actually restored the front of the building to its original state, which was a cementitious or brownstone facade. Despite adding a floor, we made it look, appear as if that's the way it had always been.

 

So we were playing up this Jekyll and Hyde inside, outside contrasting relationship. And so the rear is this monolithic kind of earthy force in a way that appears entirely different from the front of the house. And there was a real desire with the large windows to bring light and air into the space, to feel continuous ness of the space between the inside of the building and the rear.

 

And I think that's really where the search also for the right brick came into play because we knew that whatever we did, which we wanted to be masonry on the rear also had to be that same masonry on the inside of the addition as well.

 

00;10;38;17 - 00;10;52;02

DP

So tell us a little bit about style choice. So the owners, did they just say right away, hey, we want to do something contemporary? They're looking at your project, the Switchback House, and they're thinking, this is what we want to do. That's why we came to you.

 

00;10;52;04 - 00;11;14;22

SN

To be honest, I always tried to actually sidestep away from conversations about style, but there was an idea from the get-go that they had seen our work. They wanted something in that vein. There was no conversations about whether something should be stylistically historical or modern or contemporary. There was just questions about where things should be, how they should function, and what material should be the outcome.

 

00;11;14;29 - 00;11;20;07

DP

Did the city dictate that the third story on that front elevation had to be a traditional aesthetic?

 

00;11;20;09 - 00;11;22;25

SN

Absolutely not. That that was a client driven.

 

00;11;22;25 - 00;11;23;16

DP

Client driven.

 

00;11;23;19 - 00;12;04;00

SN

Yes. And you know what? At first I thought, you know what? If the vertical edition was something modern, stepped back and those were ideas that I was really interested in to play as a counterpoint to the historical facade. But the client and I think to their credit, in the end, this idea of really disguising the kind of dynamism that was going on inside that the front played a more subtle, subdued role.

 

I really like that. In the end, the front door is a reference to their heritage. Actually, it's a mahogany lattice that references Geoffrey Bauer's work and some of the screens that he developed in his work. So there's suggestions of a kind of different world within, but it's very subtle.

 

00;12;04;02 - 00;12;10;15

DP

So tell us a little bit about the building restrictions. Was there an FAR? Zoning codes?

 

00;12;10;17 - 00;12;28;14

SN

Yeah, sure. So it's a 20 to by, I think a little under a hundred foot deep lot. So obviously you have to do your calculations. But no, we are not maximizing FAR, we're close, but not maximizing the envelope is, I believe, 50 feet on the street side. But we're not engaging any of those limits.

 

00;12;28;20 - 00;12;31;12

DP

You guys used masonry on the interior as well.

 

00;12;31;16 - 00;12;34;11

SN

We did. And those are full masonry bricks on the inside.

 

00;12;34;18 - 00;12;35;17

DP

So it's load bearing.

 

00;12;35;24 - 00;13;13;10

SN

Well, we're not using the bricks for load bearing purposes. It is a CMU all in the addition, but the bricks take up the three and five eighths inch width, which is I think really interesting. I think this is again speaks to the kind of work that we do is that we looked at tile products. I think Glen-Gery very makes tile products too of some of those bricks but we wanted it to turn corners.

 

We wanted it to move, we wanted it to appear fully authentic. And in the end, I think once we had reflected on all the products available, that using the same brick, the same finish was the right move. And with the 22 and a half foot wide lot, it really afforded us that opportunity.

 

00;13;13;12 - 00;13;18;29

DP

So tell us about some of the unique construction details that you guys ended up using on the project.

 

00;13;19;01 - 00;14;20;08

SN

This whole project, this whole house was bespoke. I mean, it kind of drove us mad how difficult it was. We were there almost every other day figuring things out. You know, my office is near Clinton Hill, so it's a five minute bike ride. And there were lots of things to consider constantly as the construction progress went on. But I think that one quality that we like to achieve in all of our projects is this notion of materials and volumes, kissing or abutting in very sensitive ways.

 

So knowing that if you want two finish materials to have a tolerance of, let's say an eighth of an inch or a 16th of an inch next to each other, one has to constantly move back from those materials and think about what's on the inside. So we worked with Henrybuilt on this kitchen. Henrybuilt produces very beautiful high end kitchens.

 

But I the architect am the verifying field for that if you can believe it we actually designed and dimension this kitchen before the masonry was built so the masonry that you see in the kitchen was actually designed to the specs of the kitchen.

 

00;14;20;13 - 00;14;22;16

DP

Wow, that is backwards.

 

00;14;22;21 - 00;14;38;26

SN

But I had to know where everything was. So we have the CMU in place. I had to understand the depth of all the materials where they would end up. And using that information we decided what the kitchen was, where it would be. And then I'm on the field supervising, making sure that the masonry is indeed where I think it will be.

 

00;14;39;03 - 00;14;50;06

DP

Yeah, I think it's pretty cool. It's pretty rare to see masonry on the interior of a building. You just referenced, there were other materials you guys talked about using for both the interior and maybe even the rear facade.

 

00;14;50;08 - 00;16;19;11

SN

The client, they had this dream of a masonry rear facade. I did too. I mean, it's what made sense. I mean, masonry is a East Coast material. It is something we see a lot here. The beautiful old buildings, you know, of the Northeast are made of brick, many of them red brick. And so that was a theme that came up as well.

 

The client did have a bit of a dream of this red brick facade, but knowing that this brick would live on the inside as well, esthetically, I felt that a red brick spoke too much of exterior use and would be a kind of too much of a contrast to the type of mood and space we were trying to create on the inside.

 

A lighter brick reflects light. It bounces light around. It doesn't present itself as a color so much as an opportunity for variations in tone throughout a space. There's so much light in this house that we kind of, after some time and looking at many, many different products in many Glen-Gery products, we decided that a white light cream colored brick was the right choice.

 

And then it came to question, Well, how do we get a white brick that has the texture that works both on the outside and on the inside, and doesn't force someone to see that as an issue in one way or the other. And so we went with, in the end, white velour, which we felt was this perfect middle ground of cream colored was not too white, was not too beige, not too reflective, not too matte, and had a wonderful kind of authentic handed texture to it that I think really helped the house out a lot.

 

00;16;19;13 - 00;16;23;21

DP

And used a slightly darker mortar. Right? So we didn't know it's brick.

 

00;16;23;21 - 00;16;39;26

SN

Correct. We tested it out. So that was a sense of do we want the lines to go away? That's always a question you know, architects deal with. I think we found something that wasn't too much of a contrast, but very clearly spoke to the manual craft that goes into putting brick walls together.

 

00;16;39;29 - 00;16;41;29

DP

So you guys have a green roof on this?

 

00;16;42;04 - 00;16;42;23

SN

We do.

 

00;16;42;26 - 00;16;46;11

DP

So sustainability was something you guys talked about?

 

00;16;46;12 - 00;17;13;21

SN

For sure. We have solar panels on the roof and a green roof, 100 square feet of green roof is required now of new construction in New York on residential projects. If you don't have solar panels, we kind of decided to do both. The solar panels actually came a little later on in the project, but the green roof is integrated into the addition, so that actually when one descends down the stair from the second to the first floor, they look out of a window that views out upon the green roof.

 

00;17;13;24 - 00;17;30;24

SN

And that green roof also, the intention is over time it grows, it's exotic, it falls down the facade. And so the idea of the brick as a kind of monumental monolithic material that as a counterpoint to the organic quality of the roof itself, our hope is that they really begin to work together in a lovely way.

 

00;17;31;01 - 00;17;34;05

DP

How much energy can they generate with the solar panels?

 

00;17;34;08 - 00;17;40;23

SN

Probably anywhere between 40 to 50%. You know, I think obviously in the winter, not so much, but in the summer a lot.

 

00;17;40;26 - 00;17;49;03

DP

Yeah, that's pretty cool. Let's talk a little bit about the architectural process, 2D 3D. Do you work in both? What are the programs you're using?

 

00;17;49;08 - 00;19;06;00

SN

Yeah, well, I'm an artist in the truest sense of the word. You know, I'm a draftsman and I was a painter in college. I still paint, I think, with a pencil and paper. I think through watercolors and painting. And that's how ideas begin to formulate in my mind. And so everything begins in a kind of old school way for me, it's kind of funny.

 

I like digital tools, but I think that I'm most creative on working directly with my hands. So I also think that's very exciting for clients. People forget that you're sitting at a table with paper and you're with a client, and to be able to communicate ideas through drawing is a privilege and it's fun.

 

And so that's how I begin the process. And then very quickly, we're moving to we use Rhino for all of our 3D design and a lot of model making. So our office, we have a 3D printer, we've created a hybrid process where, you know, as you can see in the photograph, our models have 3D printed components, wood components that are done by hand, concrete.

 

In a funny way, the models are a kind of precursor to the actuality of the house itself in that image. That's a quarter inch model there. It's a significantly large model and I think we use that with clients. They enjoy it. The model really offers a quality of light and experience that the renderings don't.

 

00;19;06;02 - 00;19;08;06

DP

Yeah, I was going to say clients love models.

 

00;19;08;09 - 00;19;12;26

SN

Yeah, they do. We don't charge for them, but we should.

 

00;19;12;28 - 00;19;17;04

DP

So you said you had two other people in the office working with you on this project?

 

00;19;17;11 - 00;19;35;07

SN

On this project, it was just me and one employee. You know, we worked together. Hands and hands, both of us. All hands on deck, figuring this out. I did most of the CA, Construction Administration, on this project, and I'm very hands on on site as well, drawing, sketching with builders, working directly with the foremen. And, you know, those are all things I really enjoy.

 

00;19;35;10 - 00;19;39;08

DP

So you're out on site every two or three days, which is wonderful?

 

00;19;39;15 - 00;19;43;11

SN

Or terrible, depending how you think about it. But in this case it was wonderful.

 

00;19;43;11 - 00;20;01;24

DP

Of course, I was just wondering, you know, you spend so much time with the GC and the subs. There's something you learn like every day. I mean, I feel like I learn an awful lot. I'm 54. I've been an architect for close to 30 years, and I feel like I'm learning something new, whenever I'm in the field that happened with his job or any other jobs?

 

00;20;02;02 - 00;20;44;15

SN

Yeah, I mean, I really enjoy it because it's really humbling. I mean, I'm not the type of architect who thinks they know the right answer all the time. I really approach my projects from a kind of artful spatial perspective, and I rely on the different trades and the experts that I surround myself with to help me through the process to get the project realized.

 

And so that means I have a trusting relationship with GCs as best as I can, that, you know, we work together. I take their advice. You know, I follow their lead at times to help resolve certain things that I might not know how to do. That's not frustrating for me. That's the best. And I like architecture because of that. Every project offers me a chance to learn something new and I find that challenge exciting.

 

00;20;44;17 - 00;20;53;05

DP

It's a great attitude. It's a humble one, and it's one most architects should have, right? We go out there and we can learn an awful lot from the people that are doing their job.

 

00;20;53;12 - 00;21;17;29

SN

Yeah, I mean, at some point I want to be in a position to maybe have a bit more knowledge. But I also think you can't be too trusting. I mean, there are moments when things aren't done right or mistakes are made that will realize in making the project not what it should be. It's hard to speak up at those moments and take agency, But yeah, it's a fine line. But all in all, I approach it through teamwork and being humble and listening to those around me.

 

00;21;18;01 - 00;21;21;07

DP

Did you guys end up using the Mason that you found right away?

 

00;21;21;09 - 00;21;30;20

SN

This project is pretty amazing in that the crew that we worked with did everything so the Mason was not someone subbed out. It was a crew of guys that did everything on this project.

 

00;21;30;22 - 00;21;31;29

DP

That's pretty unusual.

 

00;21;32;04 - 00;21;34;12

SN

Yes, maybe not as much in Brooklyn, but yes.

 

00;21;34;17 - 00;22;02;27

DP

So Shane, you're a young architect with a presumably long runway in front of you. Do you have any advice to young architects out there that are looking for projects and they're wondering, like, how does this work? You had said early in our discussion that in the very beginning it's really hard to find work. I mean, you've got to kind of wait for somebody to find you.

 

And how do you get your work in a magazine and then somebody finds it and then, you know, you're recognizable. It's a long it takes a long time.

 

00;22;03;00 - 00;23;29;16

SN

I have a lot of varied interest in my life. You know, I have a family, I paint, I do other things. Architecture, obviously is my career and it's what I want to do. But I think, one, it's helpful not to have all your eggs in one basket so that there are many things in life that make you happy.

 

And I think that helps and affords one with the patience that's needed to be an architect because a project from its beginning to its end to its publishing is five years even on a house, right? So that kind of patients you need, that can be really frustrating I think if you take a step back and think about it that way.

 

But it's just the reality. Working hard to get the images out there. I do believe I hate to say it, but the photographs are the medium by which our work is understood. It's very important to photograph your work with someone you trust in the way that you imagine it to be understood. I don't think people do that enough.

 

I work with my best friend is someone I grew up with who's my photographer, and it's very collaborative. We spend one day actually just in the house taking 500 shots. We then go through all of them, choose our favorites, revise, edit, iterate, and you know, then it's a two day shoot and it's a lot of work. We didn't hire a stylist or anything like that for this project.

 

This is us moving things around, using the client's furniture itself. This is all their stuff. And that's something I worked with the clients on as well. But yeah, just making sure that the project ends up looking recorded the way you intended to be. I think that's really, really important.

 

00;23;29;18 - 00;23;36;16

DP

So Shane, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where could people go to learn more about Light and Air Architecture and yourself?

 

00;23;36;18 - 00;24;09;27

SN

Yeah, I mean, they should go to my website and look through the work. You can email me at Shane@landa-arch.com, or just search Light and Air Architecture. Either way, you'll end up at my website, and my website shows a selection of finished work and ongoing work. We have a really interesting townhouse that's in construction uptown on 95th Street.

 

Similar ideas, but completely different type of stair, all constructed out of steel offsite and being brought in more constantly, exploring different ways of thinking about the New York house. So yeah, feel free to get in touch.

 

00;24;10;00 - 00;24;35;12

DP

Well, thank you very much, Shane.

 

 

TRANSCRIPT

 

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;10

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;12 - 00;00;37;12

Eric Pros (EP)

The previous facility really just wasn't suiting their needs at all. They didn't have large gathering spaces. They didn't have places for fitness or any kind of wellness. So understanding all of those needs and trying to come up with a layout for the building that made all those spaces very obvious and making circulation to those spaces very easy. So we laid the building out as kind of a big donut.

 

So the circulation pass around the core. You can't get lost if you make a wrong turn, you just do a loop around the building and you're right back where you started.

 

00;00;37;14 - 00;03;04;27

DP

This is my guest, Eric Pros. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we highlight Eric's new City of Westlake Senior Community Center. The new City of Westlake Senior Community Center was designed for senior citizens. The building is quite large at 28,000 square feet, and the building typology is more and more familiar across the United States.

 

With that said, the design team used design restrictions as an opportunity. The City of Westlake, Ohio, adopted a distinctive Western reserve traditional style of architecture. All public buildings throughout Westlake are comprised of a traditional sandstone water table, a blended red brick veneer and a pitched roof with reverse gables over their entries. At the outset, it was strongly suggested by the city that all buildings in Westlake incorporate the same old Detroit red brown blend of brick in a standard modular size.

 

With these stipulations in mind, the finished building reimagines the standard running bond pattern of brick through the lens of an ancient Roman ruin. The team created a unique quarter coffer brick detail to make both the construction process repeatable and the facades uniquely textured. The resulting esthetic is innovative and quite elegant.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

 

Eric is Director of Design at DS Architecture in Cleveland, Ohio. He has a bachelor's and master's degree in architecture and MBA all from Kent State University. Eric has also served as a professor at Kent State teaching Design Studio and digital application courses. His focus at DS Architecture is creating accessible and inclusive design, which has led to numerous award winning projects and successful partnerships across the country.

 

He was recently awarded the American Institute of Architects 2022 Young Architect Award at the national level. He was included in the 40 under 40 class of 2022 by Building Design and Construction Network. He was also chosen as the 2022 recipient of the International Masonry Institute's Young Architect Innovator in Masonry Award. Welcome, Eric. Nice to have you with us today.

 

So tell us a little bit about DS Architecture in Cleveland, Ohio. Where are you guys located? What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;05;03 - 00;03;31;16

EP

Thanks, Doug. It's great to be here today. DS Architecture is headquartered in Cleveland, Ohio, and we are growing to be 20 people. We're actually making a hire very soon. We're actually celebrating our 40th year in business this year. So David Summers founded the firm in 1983, and it's been growing ever since. So I've been with the firm for about 12 years now.

 

August was my 12-year anniversary at the firm, and it's just been really incredible to see the growth over that time and to be a part of it.

 

00;03;31;19 - 00;03;34;25

DP

Had you worked at any other firms before DS Architecture?

 

00;03;35;01 - 00;04;13;18

EP

Yeah, I had an opportunity to intern as a high school student for a small design firm out on the west side of Cleveland in Vermillion and learned a lot there. They were a little bit more of a traditional firm in hadn’t fully embrace technology, so even had a chance to draw by hand and run blueprints the old way.

 

So gave me a great background into the design profession. Then as I went into college, you know, I had an opportunity to intern at a couple different firms and get a good experience learning about the industry, learning about different typologies. When I graduated, the opportunity to join DS Architecture presented itself. I've been there ever since.

 

00;04;13;20 - 00;04;16;12

DP

So what's your role in your current position?

 

00;04;16;15 - 00;04;58;26

EP

I'm the Director of Design at DS Architecture. That means a lot of different things. I have some influence and some input on all the design decisions we make at the firm. Some projects I get a lot more involved with and run through some of that project management as well. On other projects, I'm a little less involved and just there to provide feedback or to be a sounding board for the team.

 

So every project is a little bit different. The Westlake Senior Community Center Project is one of those projects where I was embedded in the team throughout the entire project. So the interview process to the ribbon cutting ceremony, I was there for the whole step. That project presented a lot of opportunities for us. It was the right one to really get involved with. So it was a pleasure.

 

00;04;58;28 - 00;05;10;21

DP

It clearly did and I'm really looking forward to digging in here. So let's talk about the building. Tell us a little bit more about the new City of Westlake Senior Community Center. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;05;10;23 - 00;06;06;25

EP

So it's a public project. Obviously, our client was the City of Westlake, so we went through a typical RFQ process where we submitted our qualifications. We put together a great team for this project. We had two engineers that we partnered with quite often on these public projects. We also brought in a subject matter expert, a firm called Lifespan Design out of Cincinnati, to serve as our senior center design consultant.

 

So they have a wealth of knowledge on designing senior centers and all the details that go into that. So that team is the reason why we won. I think our passion for design and the team we had built really gave us a chance to win that one. So again, went through the interview process, was awarded the project. The City of Westlake was our client and we had the end users.

 

A win by anybody. Agad is the director there. So she was sort of our client in a way. But we're working with the City of Westlake is our point of contact.

 

00;06;06;28 - 00;06;10;23

DP

So you guys did not know the clients before you submitted the RFQ?

 

00;06;10;26 - 00;06;31;11

EP

That's correct. This was our first project with the city. Like so brand new client. That's part of the fun with the public projects. We always meet new people, and even though it's a similar project to maybe another community, every community has a different character. They have a different vision for how they'll use the space. So it's always a new relationship that we get a chance to build.

 

00;06;31;14 - 00;06;34;11

DP

So how far was the location from your office?

 

00;06;34;14 - 00;06;45;25

EP

Not too far. About 20 minutes. Just near west side of Cleveland. So there's a highway that connects the two pretty closely. So very easy to get there, and we're proud to be working in our community.

 

00;06;45;27 - 00;06;48;28

DP

Could you give us a little history of the location?

 

00;06;49;01 - 00;07;27;01

EP

Sure. The senior center is located in the recreational campus for the City of Westlake . They have a parking space that they've designated for the public to use. It has a rec center. It has baseball fields, pickleball courts, a fishing pond, even sledding hills. So it's a place for the community to gather. This project wanted to be a part of that overall campus, but have its own identity.

 

Before this, the senior center was located in an old golf clubhouse and it really wasn't suited to their needs, wasn't designed for the uses there. So they wanted to be a part of that overall civic campus. What have their own space?

 

00;07;27;04 - 00;07;33;05

DP

So the scope of the project is pretty obvious. Could you give us a little bit more about the client's programmatic requirements?

 

00;07;33;07 - 00;09;09;09

EP

Absolutely. Working with the senior center and understanding the users and the types of spaces that they would be using there gave us an opportunity to really get an insight into the daily operations of the senior center and learning all of the wonderful programs that they have. The previous facility really just wasn't suiting their needs at all. They didn't have large gathering spaces.

 

They didn't have places for fitness or any kind of wellness. So understanding all of those needs and trying to come up with a layout for the building that made all those spaces very obvious and making circulation to those spaces very easy. So we laid the building out is kind of a big donut. So the circulation pass around the core, you can't get lost. If you make a wrong turn you just do a loop around the building and you're right back where you started thinking about visibility and in views through the building from the building to the building were really critical for us. The wayfinding that we did for the project made it so that anyone who was coming to that building for any of the programs they have has a very clear path to get from the parking lot to the building and to the program safely.

 

We located the administrative offices right in the front of the building near where there is a drop off and clear view of the parking lot. So in Cleveland, our winters can be pretty rough and we wanted to make sure that there was visibility out into the parking lot in case a car were to get stuck or someone would have trouble getting from their car to the building.

 

So thinking about the views and that connection between the staff and the patrons was really critical.

 

00;09;09;12 - 00;09;19;18

DP

So let's back up a sec and talk a little bit about the site. It seems to me there were no unique topographic features for the building. The land is relatively flat other than the sledding hill.

 

00;09;19;18 - 00;10;09;18

EP

Correct. It's a very flat site and because of the users with possible mobility issues, thinking about making the site as level and as flat and is easy to navigate as possible was critical for us. We did introduce some landscape elements, some kind of mounting to provide some interesting views to the building, provide a little privacy from some of the other users in the recreational campus, and also to provide a bit of a buffer between this facility and the neighboring residences because it's in this park, we have a lot of activity on one side of the building.

 

On the other side, there are people's homes. So we wanted to make sure we were good neighbor. The nature of this building, it's not loud, doesn't stay open late, but we did want to make sure we had that proper separation between the uses here and people's backyards.

 

00;10;09;20 - 00;10;21;10

DP

And what about project restrictions? You've got the job. Now you've got to look at the zoning codes and building codes, etc. Anything unique or special regarding like ADA, for example?

 

00;10;21;15 - 00;11;16;20

EP

With this project, because we were designing for seniors that may or may not have mobility issues, we took ADA compliance very seriously and even went into more of a mindset of universal design where we didn't want to have any slopes more than 20%. We wanted to make sure that we had handrails around the perimeter of the building for someone who's walking, it may need to take a break between two locations.

 

So we really thought a lot about the types of people using the space, how to give them dignity while they're using it, and to make it a space where people feel comfortable. One of the biggest challenges is getting seniors to come out, connect, feel comfortable, create those relationships. And that was one of the challenges that this building had, was finding ways to make all that happen without making it look geriatric or like a senior home or a hospital, but having those features there when you need them.

 

00;11;16;27 - 00;11;24;23

DP

So I'm sure the city reviewed the design. How long did the planning process take the City Review and design and construction kind of start to finish?

 

00;11;24;25 - 00;12;37;02

EP

Yeah, that's a good question. The city was very involved as our client, obviously the city engineer, were our main port of contact, so they helped us through the process. They were there to sort of lead that design because it was a high profile public project for the community. We got a lot of feedback from the community, especially those that the neighbors that abutted the property had concerns and we certainly wanted to address all of those.

 

So the process was involved. We got a lot of feedback. We had many, many public meetings trying to find the right way to position it on the site, trying to find the right way to make sure respecting the neighbors, making the building visible. A lot of parameters there to navigate. Ultimately did we got through and even the style of the building was something that people felt very passionate about.

 

As you mentioned at the beginning, it's in this campus that has a Western Reserve style to it. We wanted the building to fit into that campus, but also have its own identity, and that gave us certainly a design challenge. How do we make something that feels traditional but doesn't feel too dated or has new energy in life, which is what the seniors need out of this building? So it was a challenge, certainly was.

 

00;12;37;04 - 00;13;36;06

DP

So the City of Westlake set up some restrictions, obviously, what material the buildings made out of, but they didn't say how to form those brick modules on the exterior. Correct? And so you guys decided we've got 28,000 square feet in the buildings, a giant donut. So we have these large facades and you're thinking about what the heck can we do with a building that most architects would simply probably not spend a lot of time thinking about these exterior elevations?

 

When I saw these photos, I got to tell you, I was blown away. This is a gorgeous series of details and it must have taken quite some time for the office to put these together. So let's talk a little bit about start to finish. Who came up with this idea and how did you guys start thinking about the fact that we're going to use an ancient Roman ruin?

 

And where do you go with that and how do you articulate that in the office and how many different passes did it take, etc.?

 

00;13;36;08 - 00;15;26;14

EP

Thank you for appreciating the challenge that that presented. As you mentioned, you know, we sort of inherited a kit of parts, the tools of the materials that we needed to use for the project. But as you indicated, how they come together is really what's interesting. As an architect, you can take a brick and detail that a number of different ways and get a lot of other results out of it.

 

Then what might be expected. So as you indicated, the Pantheon was sort of our inspiration for this project. The layout of the building is focused around this courtyard, which brings natural light into the building, makes it a focal point for people to gather. Even if the weather's not cooperating, you can still go outside and be under these covered canopies, so you can at least get some fresh air.

 

Enjoy the weather in Cleveland when it is appropriate to do so. So the Pantheon became sort of a inspiration for the overall way that the buildings felt, the way that light came into the space, energized that space, created a focal point and really made that volume inspiring. People that are familiar with the Pantheon, the most dramatic spaces when you get into that covered dome and you have the lake coming into the oculus in the way that light spills over those coffers is just incredible.

 

Every time you're there, the light looks differently. The shadows that are cast on those coffers are just truly inspiring. So we took that idea and instead of making it part of the interior, we express that on the exterior. So we took the idea of a coffer and developed a detail out of bricks that accomplished those shadows, the as light across the surface and detailed it in a way that we could get as much drama out of those details as possible.

 

So as you indicated, the quarter coffer we kind of took that coffer detail and took a corner of it and use that as the inspiration for the exterior.

 

00;15;26;21 - 00;15;32;17

DP

For those that are listening who don't understand what a coffer is. Could you describe that to people?

 

00;15;32;20 - 00;16;06;15

EP

Yeah. So a coffer, particularly in the pantheon, it's a concrete dome and these are recesses that are carved into that mass. The Pantheon has a series of kind of steps to their coffers too. So there's even more shadow, there's more depth to that material. And the massiveness of that concrete is really celebrated in that way. You can get a sense of how much depth and how much mass there is to that form.

 

And then the way that light interacts with that space just really energizes it and creates that dramatic effect we wanted to capture.

 

00;16;06;18 - 00;16;26;22

DP

If I recall correctly. So the coffers create a kind of structural grid. And there also the concrete is thinned out toward the center in order to make the concrete lighter so that it actually works. So it's a really interesting idea. I can't wait to get into how these masons and you guys work this whole thing out.

 

00;16;26;25 - 00;17;52;15

EP

But again, yeah, using the idea of the coffered dome as a way to catch light, in a way to show the passage of time, but also to create something that's massive and feels permanent and feels welcoming in a way too, because of the volume of the space that became sort of our inspiration for the exterior, we made many iterations on exactly how we can capture so depths out of an otherwise flat wall.

 

Some of the spaces of this building are large. There's an auditorium space that has a very tall volume of space, and we didn't want any windows on the exterior of that. So what do you do with an 18 foot high brick wall? We had some ideas. We had some great ideas on how to make some depth, how to make the building feel enticing, and to take light differently in the morning than it would in the afternoon.

 

The colors change as light conditions change across it. So we took that detail and wrapped the entire building with it. Once we came up with the one that we liked, we just used that module in a number of different ways. It gave us a chance to explore the depths of the wall. There's was only four inches from the outside base of the brick to the back, but the subtlety of how we either could build the brick or slope them and step them back gave us opportunity to get nuances out of the shadows that you wouldn't think were possible out of a four inch gap there.

 

00;17;52;17 - 00;18;02;29

DP

So there's a lot to talk about here. I guess my first question is, did you have to make the exterior walls four inches deeper in order to accommodate that four inch dimension?

 

00;18;03;01 - 00;18;43;15

EP

We did, yeah. We took our typical brick cavity of maybe an inch to two inches and pushed that to more like four inches. So we had the ability to still have that drainage plain, still have proper brick detailing, but we also then had that depth to work with. So the base of the building is a calcium silicate sandstone looking product.

 

And behind that we just had some for CMU to help build out that mass, the typical Western Reserve style, you'd see a sandstone base. We embraced that idea kind of let that be the place that everything else would be housed on and then use that brick to start to articulate the facade and explore that depth.

 

00;18;43;18 - 00;18;47;19

DP

So when you guys drew this, did you draw it in both 2D and 3D?

 

00;18;47;22 - 00;20;01;13

EP

We sure did. And in fact, we went a step further and actually built a physical model. We were still in lockdown from COVID at this point, so maybe had a little more free time on my hands than I normally would have. But I thought it would be a great opportunity to take our digital models, our sketches, some of our inspiration images, and actually build a physical mockup of what that detail could look like.

 

So I went on Amazon and bought some small little bricks that I think are used to build dollhouses or maybe model train environments and actually built it. I built a whole panel of the quarter coffer detail and I had fun with it. I learned some ideas about how to detail it more appropriately. I think the Masons laughed a little bit when I brought it out on site to show them what I was thinking, but I think they also respected the fact that I took the time to try to communicate our ideas in that way.

 

But we use building information, modeling software called Revit that helps us visualize the materials in our digital environment. But building it in a physical sense, gave us opportunity to really kind of see the way light shines on it in a real world. So we built it at one inch to a foot scale. So it was about two feet tall, not a small model, but they had a lot of fun with that.

 

00;20;01;15 - 00;20;22;01

DP

It sounds really cool. You know, one of the things that's really elegant about this detail, I don't recall how many steps are in the coffers at the Pantheon, maybe two or three, but this has many as a series of steps. And each one of those what's the distance on each one? A quarter of an inch or a half of an inch?

 

00;20;22;03 - 00;20;23;29

EP

It's about a quarter of an inch. Yeah, you're right.

 

00;20;24;02 - 00;20;26;18

DP

Yeah. So it's super subtle.

 

00;20;26;21 - 00;20;55;16

EP

Yes, exactly. And then certain points the day you don't even appreciate the fact that they are going up, other times a day when the sun's more an oblique angle, you get lots of shadow, lots of kind of linear lines that come out of that that completely change the look of the building and that's what we really enjoyed is from the morning light to the evening light, sort of subtle and soft.

 

And then by the afternoon you really get some stark shadows and some really striking depth out of that detail.

 

00;20;55;23 - 00;21;21;27

DP

What I love about this show is the guests that we have, they're architects, but they're doing what we're taught to do in school, right? I mean, that's really think about what you're doing. So another architect in my mind, most architects would take this project and do, as I said earlier, something very straightforward, right? They just take the easy way out and do a really simple facade. But you guys really thought through this to an absolutely beautiful detail.

 

00;21;22;01 - 00;21;22;13

EP

Thank you.

 

00;21;22;19 - 00;21;26;13

DP

So was sustainability an issue ever for the building's design?

 

00;21;26;15 - 00;23;32;11

EP

It was. We didn't pursue LEED certification for this project, but we certainly wanted to be mindful about sustainability, the longevity of this building, hopefully being in service for many decades. We wanted the building to be an asset to the City of Westlake and something that they can be proud of for the long term. So as I mentioned before, you know, accessibility users had to come first, but we saw it a lot about natural light.

 

For instance, how do we bring light into all those spaces in ways that enhance the user experience and avoid glare and make the building kind of energized in that way? So lighting was one of the really great tools that we used in this project to just flood the spaces with light in different ways that make the spaces more exciting and at the same time more sustainable.

 

We have a light harvesting, daylight harvesting system in the building. So if there's enough natural light to the exterior, the interior lights dim automatically. So in the evenings obviously the lights come back up to provide the lighting the way we needed to. You know, thinking about resiliency, Masonry is a wonderful product for public buildings. This building, as I mentioned, will be in service for 50 years, hopefully.

 

So throughout that time, we really hope that the bricks will serve them well and be a good investment in the future in that building. So the envelope of building behind the masonry veneer, we really invested in a fluid wall system that provides that thermal barrier that we need. We had a sheeting product that has a factory applied weather barrier, so the whole system came together great.

 

We had a rigid insulation continuous around the entire building and even filled the cavity of the metal studs behind it with spray foam. So we have a really tight envelope there. We have a lot of masonry in the buildings, kind of these two flanking bars that are mostly masonry. And in the middle of the building is very transparent, very open.

 

So we have a lot of glazing through the middle of the building. We found a glazing product that had high energy performance for us there to mimic the performance in the masonry.

 

00;23;32;14 - 00;23;41;07

DP

So you guys clearly learned a little bit more about using brick masonry. Have you guys used this idea again in other projects or something similar to it?

 

00;23;41;14 - 00;24;18;20

EP

That's a good question. We try to be unique. We try to have each project be a new challenge and a new opportunity to try to use Masonry in a new way. So in some ways we learned some detailing, we learned some constraints, we learned some construction methodologies that we've certainly taken forward. But I don't know that we'll use this exact same detail again.

 

I think we'll find a way to continue to innovate. For me anyways, I'd like to do something a little new. Each project. I think that's what architects can do for a project too. If we did another senior center, I think we would take a completely new look at it. I don't think we would try to replicate really anything. It's a new adventure.

 

00;24;18;25 - 00;24;24;17

DP

That's great to hear. Spoken like a true architect. So did you guys have any trouble finding a good mason?

 

00;24;24;19 - 00;25;45;08

EP

The contractor we worked with had a mason that was under their umbrella. They self perform masonry. So when they were building the project, they had a lot of questions and we had a lot of good conversations with them very early on. And really happy with the product. We got Mason's insight. They were passionate about their craft, they were excited for the challenge.

 

We had a lot of good collaboration back and forth. They were calling me throughout the day asking me, Are we doing this right or understanding what you're looking for? Or even, Hey, you know, we've got an idea that can make it even better. Or what about this? So having that energy, having that connection with the craftspeople that are doing the work I think is really important.

 

You know, a lot of times as architects, we do our drawings, they go out the door, somebody else builds it, and there's really never that opportunity to kind of interface with the folks that are actually doing that work. In this case, though, we built a great relationship. I'd be very happy to work with those guys again. They were wonderful.

 

They were even some younger apprentices that were on the job that I think had never really done any projects before, let alone something with this amount of care. So I think they learned a lot. I think the foremen on the job had a chance to teach a lot, so I hope they were inspired by the project and would move forward with a renewed passion for the profession.

 

00;25;45;11 - 00;26;01;27

DP

I hear a lot about how difficult it is to find people to learn masonry, so it's good to hear that there are people out there learning the craft. So back to the mock up real quickly. So you clearly did a mock up. Did these guys then do one giant panel for you before they got rolling?

 

00;26;01;29 - 00;28;05;16

EP

That's a great question. So the International Masonry Institute, first of all, they are wonderful resource. The people. There are just a wealth of knowledge and they're there to help you answer questions, help you work through details. So I engage with them quite often when we're looking at some of these details, it's always good to get a second set of eyes, or many of those people actually were Masons or worked in the trades in some capacity.

 

So they may have some wisdom on other means and methods of how to install that. But in this particular project we engage them and asked if we could build a mock up very early in the design process to test out some ideas. We had some thoughts about can we make precast lintels with bricks formed into a concrete beam to accomplish some of those steps that we had?

 

Could we run stainless steel rods through the brick cores and kind of build a structure that way? But we ended up doing a little more traditional lintels to accomplish that goal. But we did have a chance to explore those ideas. And so the great thing there they have apprentices that are coming through the training program that are available to help build mockups.

 

So as an architect, I get a chance to interface with the future of the masonry profession. They get a chance to work with an architect very early in their trainings and look at drawings and start to understand how to read drawings and how to interface with design professionals. So very thankful for that resource and it's actually very close as well.

 

It's only maybe a half hour away. So we had the Masons that were building the job look at some of the photos we did of the mockup. We had some diagrams of how those bricks could come together and we had the trainers out there at the center available to answer any questions about how big do our anchors need to be or how are we detailing the flashing at some of these connections or interfacing with the international Masons, who is just a wonderful opportunity.

 

I don't think they're sick of me coming out there yet and borrowing their apprentices. So I'll keep taking them up on the opportunity.

 

00;28;05;23 - 00;28;17;27

DP

Great to hear. So switching gears, Eric, you're a young and successful guy. Do you have any advice for young architects out there that's been helpful to you along your journey?

 

00;28;18;00 - 00;29;41;27

EP

Boy, how much time do we have? I guess, you know, for me, I think you brought up a good point earlier that sometimes the easy thing to do is kind of what's expected. We always have budgets, we always have schedules. We have all these constraints that seem to limit our ability to create and be creative and innovate on, you know, brick.

 

We used a modular brick unit and got a really different result out of it than maybe otherwise could have been possible. So I think it's important to remember what we passionate about and trying to find the time to make that a priority in the project. You know, the client didn't come to us necessarily and say we want a really cool brick detail. We want something that's different. We had to kind of convince them that this building is worth investing in. It's worth doing something a little bit different. It wants to have its own identity and it also wants to fit into the context from a couple thousand feet away. You wouldn't really notice some of those details as you get closer to the building and more intimate with the spaces, that's when you really start to appreciate some of the richness.

 

And the end users of the building are what it's all about. They're the ones that are going to this building, hopefully being inspired by the brick by the other details of the project. To me, that's what it's all about. So we certainly could have taken the easy road and just made it a flat brick wall. But we wanted to do a little better for those people.

 

00;29;41;29 - 00;29;50;11

DP

There are going to be people that want me to ask, Did it cost more because you ended up making the exterior detailing more challenging?

 

00;29;50;14 - 00;30;47;03

EP

I would have to say that the material cost was about the same. We still use the same quantity of brick as we otherwise would have. The labor that went into it, I think was a little more time consuming. So again, having that early opportunity to collaborate with those Masons explained to them the goals, explained to them that he once you do this detail, once it repeats around the building, figure out a methodology to accomplish this and then just keep doing it.

 

So they came up with some pretty interesting ways. It's always fascinating to see the Masons out there in the field working, but using plumb bobs and using some wooden kind of jigs to help establish some of those flat planes that are pushed in. How do we measure the corbels that are coming out? They had built some jigs that would help repeat that pattern, so they got innovative out there in the field as well and found some ways to speed up that process, but certainly was more time consuming than just your typical one on top of two.

 

00;30;47;09 - 00;30;54;12

DP

Yeah, but it didn't break the bank, right? I mean, it was something they thought, hey, let's just do this. And it was well worth it in my opinion.

 

00;30;54;14 - 00;31;27;04

EP

It took a little convincing. I had to prove to them that this effect, this detail, would be something that is worth investing in. And I think, you know, if more people were to put some challenges out there to the Masons and maybe help them make this more the norm, it wouldn't take quite as much convincing. But I think at the end of the day, the Masons went into it with a little bit of concerns.

 

They were a little unsure, but it was really awesome to see throughout the project. They really start to take pride in it and really get excited about the project. It was a great relationship.

 

00;31;27;06 - 00;31;34;05

DP

Eric it’s been great to have you here today. Thanks so much for your time. Where can people go to learn more about DS Architecture and yourself?

 

00;31;34;07 - 00;32;50;03

EP

We have our web site, DSArchitecture.com. We're located downtown Cleveland in Playhouse Square on the ground floor. So we actually have the model I was describing to you in our window there. So anybody is walking by downtown, Cleveland, pop by and take a look at it and some other fun details we've developed. Stop in. I'd love to talk with you more.

 

Just a quick anecdote, too. As I was talking earlier, you know, the end users of these buildings are really what it's all about. And someone who goes this facility in Westlake happened to be downtown, saw a logo in our lobby area and actually came in just to thank us. And in this particular detail, he was thanking us for is the way we built in some handrails into the walls of a donut kind of hallway that we built in it.

 

And you don't know that it's a handrail, It's a flat panel. It's kind of rounded top to it and a little bit of a recess. And again, it's to give people dignity. If you're walking from the classroom to the bathrooms and you need to take a break for a moment to catch your breath, you've got a way to do that that doesn't make you feel feeble or like you're meeting assistance.

 

And this gentleman just came into thank us for being that thoughtful. And, you know, it's those kind of details and those kind of moments that just really made this profession so enjoyable.

 

00;32;50;10 - 00;33;02;05

DP

Wow, great story. I can't imagine many architects get to say somebody stopped in to tell them how excited they were about a detail or about something about their building. I'm sure that made you feel great.

 

00;33;02;08 - 00;33;02;27

EP

It was incredible.

 

00;33;03;02 - 00;33;05;23

DP

Well, thank you very much, Eric. It's been a pleasure having you today.

 

00;33;06;00 - 00;33;09;06

EP

Thank you, guys. I appreciate it.

TRANSCRIPT

 

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;13

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;15 - 00;00;34;07

John Zimmer (JZ)

And they had this requirement for the black box theater. You know, the project came with this with its approval, but it got a zoning bonus for having the theater in the base of extra height. It was a give back to the community that was written into the zoning. And we always knew it was going to be a theater and we always knew it was going to be for a nonprofit arts group.

 

And that arts program, as part of the building was in the DNA of the project from the very beginning and informed a lot of the decisions moving forward became part of the personality of the building throughout, not just the theater itself.

 

00;00;34;10 - 00;02;37;20

DP

This is my guest, John Zimmer. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from The Design Vault, we highlight John's project in Jersey City, New Jersey, called The Lively. The Lively is a mixed use 18 story tower in Jersey City's Powerhouse arts district. The building features residential living situated above retail and public art spaces. The entry portals at the base define the black box theater and residential portions of the building.

 

Double and triple height lobbies open up to the street through curtained glass walls at the base. The building's deep and varied openings and bronze windows and frames give a wonderful complexity to an otherwise familiar building form. The structure features a custom white brick with darker mortar, which gives the edifice a warm residential appearance. The bricks well scaled modularity complements the organized and complex facade.

 

The project's esthetic and exterior elevations are reserved yet elaborate, familiar but novel, unpretentious, yet elegant. Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. John is a partner and director at Fogarty Finger Architecture and Interiors in New York City. He's a graduate of Cornell University's School of Architecture. He's been practicing for over 20 years. He focuses on design, construction technologies, building codes and project management at the firm.

 

John spent the early part of his career in San Francisco. He later moved to New York City, where he worked for architectural firms and owned a small practice. He designed a wide variety of award-winning public and private sector works that range in size from studio apartments to city blocks. His resumé includes dozens of cultural, educational, commercial and residential projects and is balanced between new construction and renovations.

 

So welcome, John. Nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Fogarty Finger Architecture in New York City.

 

00;02;37;25 - 00;03;42;16

JZ

Sure. Thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here. So Fogarty Finger was founded just 20 years ago, pretty much on the nose. We're celebrating our 20th anniversary, and it was founded by two SOM alumni, one of whom Chris Fogarty was a kind of ground up corn shell guy at SOM. And the other Robert Finger was commercial interiors.

 

They got together and that basic structure has kind of defined the DNA of the firm ever since. It's very much a firm that offers both ground up architecture and interiors, and you'll find many firms that offer one or the other, but not both and not both in equal proportions. So our firm is very serious about both. The firm is about 130 people right now, has grown a lot in the last ten years.

 

The size of the projects has grown a lot, and I think that's a testament to the work we've been doing, but also the attitude of client service that comes initially from Chris and Robert and from SOM. just trying to deliver for our clients the product that they need while at the same time creating an architecture that satisfies us.

 

00;03;42;23 - 00;03;44;13

DP

And what kind of projects do you guys take?

 

00;03;44;19 - 00;04;19;25

JZ

On the ground up side? We're happy to take a look at anything. Most of our portfolio is multi-family residential, although we have a handful of commercial office buildings as well. We do building repositioning on all the ground up stuff. We also offer the interiors as well on the commercial interior side, and I don't work on that side of the office, but they do work for some of the largest landlords in town and do both test fits and build the suit spaces.

 

There's a strong hospitality element developing, so really a multi-disciplinary practice looking at a lot of different project types.

 

00;04;19;27 - 00;04;21;12

DP

And you guys have more than one office.?

 

00;04;21;19 - 00;04;27;06

JZ

We do. There's an office in Atlanta and also a small office in Boston as well.

 

00;04;27;10 - 00;04;29;11

DP

And where are you guys located in New York City?

 

00;04;29;17 - 00;04;35;23

JZ

We're in Tribeca on Walker Street. Been there for ten years or so. Eight years, something like that.

 

00;04;36;00 - 00;04;38;09

DP

So what's your role in the office currently?

 

00;04;38;11 - 00;04;53;05

JZ

So I'm a director. We are divided into somewhat of a studio system, a loose studio system, and there are two ground up studios. I lead one of them. I have a team of about 20 people. I'm involved in all aspects of the projects from day one to CFO.

 

00;04;53;07 - 00;04;58;14

DP

Basically, I would imagine your hours are pretty long with people working for you.

 

00;04;58;16 - 00;05;05;12

JZ

They still are, although obviously there is a team of very hardworking people with me that put in even longer hours than I do.

 

00;05;05;14 - 00;05;12;08

DP

So let's dig in and talk about the building. Tell us about The Lively in Jersey City. How did your office get the project?

 

00;05;12;10 - 00;05;50;20

JZ

The project had gotten a preliminary approval with a different owner and a different architect. The people that became our client, when they took on the project, looked at the planning and also the facades. But I would have to say more than anything, the planning of the building and thought it was problematic. It's a difficult site to do residential floorplans and it's got an acute corner there at one.

 

So, challenging site to get efficient residential layouts and we put an alternative plan in front of them that really increased the efficiency of the building and the commodious ness of the residential layouts, basically.

 

00;05;50;23 - 00;05;52;28

DP

So it wasn't a competition to get the project?

 

00;05;53;06 - 00;05;59;16

JZ

It wasn't a competition, it was an invited RFP, But I think it was the strength of the proposal that we put forward that got us the job.

 

00;05;59;18 - 00;06;02;08

DP

So could you give me a little history of the location?

 

00;06;02;11 - 00;06;55;27

JZ

Sure. The Powerhouse arts district in Jersey City is so named because there is a somewhat iconic Powerhouse there. It had been an industrial area that was targeted for redevelopment, and they had design standards for the entire district that were meant to maintain that character, not necessarily industrial, but loft style focus on the arts. The entire district has a strong focus on the arts, which is part of the reason we have the black box theater in the lively.

 

It's experienced a lot of new development over the course of the last decade and it's pretty great today. When I first started going over to the Powerhouse ten years ago. I get out of meetings and the sidewalks would be deserted. And today it feels like Brooklyn. It feels like the East Village. I mean, it is incredibly, for want of a better word, lively.

 

So it's a great neighborhood now, and it's all happened in the last decade. It's an exciting thing to have been a part of, honestly.

 

00;06;56;04 - 00;07;00;27

DP

So scope of the project, what were the client's programmatic requirements?

 

00;07;01;00 - 00;07;57;24

JZ

Well, 180 residential units. Lennar is one of the biggest home builders in America, but they were mostly doing suburban subdivision work. They got into the urban markets. I can't tell you exactly one, but they were still a little bit new to it when we took this project on. And they were ambitious. They wanted to be at the absolute top of the market for a residential building in Jersey City.

 

And obviously, as any developer does, they wanted to maximize rentable square footage and get the most bang for their buck. And they had this requirement for the black box theater. And the project came with this with its approval, but it got a zoning bonus for having the theater in the base of extra height. It was a give back to the community that was written into the zoning, and we always knew it was going to be a theater and we always knew it was going to be for a nonprofit arts group.

 

And that arts program, as part of the building was in the DNA of the project from the very beginning and informed a lot of the decisions moving forward became part of the personality of the building throughout, not just the theater itself, really.

 

00;07;57;26 - 00;07;59;13

DP

How long's the building been finished?

 

00;07;59;20 - 00;08;00;21

JZ

It's about two years.

 

00;08;00;24 - 00;08;02;07

DP

Is the theater getting used?

 

00;08;02;09 - 00;08;03;10

JZ

It does, yeah.

 

00;08;03;13 - 00;08;10;11

DP

That's great. So let's start with a site. I would imagine there are no unique topographic features. Relatively flat or. Or not?

 

00;08;10;17 - 00;08;36;02

JZ

Well, it's relatively flat. The unique topographic feature would be that it's below the 100 year flood elevation. That's always a big deal. And the sidewalks there, I think, are about five feet above sea level. So flood protection, resiliency, ground floor uses. How do you enter the building? How do you avoid nuisance flooding when it's not a 100 year storm?

 

Those were all big aspects of the design of the ground floor of the pedestrian experience.

 

00;08;36;05 - 00;08;37;17

DP

So break away walls?

 

00;08;37;24 - 00;09;07;04

JZ

There are deployable flood barrier systems designed in. So the flood elevation is seven feet above the sidewalk. In the event of a massive, take a Hurricane Sandy kind of thing. They would deploy these flood barrier systems. Don't know if you're familiar with them, but they keep them in storage and they come out and they both enter the building or they spread them around the building.

 

They can be self-supporting and they have to be deployed in a certain amount of time because it's an emergency response system. So a big part of all the projects in this area.

 

00;09;07;09 - 00;09;11;20

DP

And what about zoning code? You had mentioned you had a height issue.

 

00;09;11;22 - 00;09;54;13

JZ

Yeah. So the building got, I think, 65 additional feet for having the black box theater in it. That was one zoning aspect. You can see the cantilever here over the sidewalk. There was a sidewalk widening requirement in the zoning, so that made it obviously challenging. You've got 17 stories of residences coming down over a cantilever that allows the sidewalk to be wider at the base.

 

That was an interesting challenge. There's a little bit of parking in the building that came from the zoning. So obviously some structural challenges there as well. Whenever you're putting that many residences over the top of a parking garage. The second floor here that you see through the window, that is also designated art space in the zoning, also a requirement.

 

00;09;54;16 - 00;09;59;26

DP

So I don't do tall buildings. How many extra floors does 65 feet get you?

 

00;09;59;29 - 00;10;26;28

JZ

I think it was basically five because the top floor amenity space, rooftop amenity, which was specifically permitted by the zoning bonus, I think it really made the building, the massing and the expression of these mid-range buildings is a little bit tricky. They're not as tall as they want to be, to be a tall building, and they're not as low rise as they want to be, to be a low rise building.

 

And I think the extra stories really helped to give it a little bit more verticality. It's a better piece of architecture for it.

 

00;10;27;01 - 00;10;30;19

DP

So tell us about the building plan. You said there's a sharp corner.

 

00;10;30;21 - 00;11;14;06

JZ

Yeah, very acute corner. There's two lot lines and it has a corner lot. So right where you have your corner window with two exposures, there's a very acute corner and I can't remember the actual degrees, but anytime you have a building and it's not just a corner that's a problem. And in fact the corner isn't really a problem.

 

You may not be able to put a sofa in that corner, but the corner per se is not a problem. It's kind of a cool room to be inside of. But what it means is that the apartments on each of those two different streets are on different geometries. And so if you're going to have a rectilinear apartment on streets that are at such different geometries that all crashes into each other at the corner and at the corridors and at the courtyard.

 

So it becomes very challenging to plan buildings that feel sensible and projects that have this kind of site.

 

00;11;14;09 - 00;11;21;01

DP

So how long do the planning process takes? So City Review design to construction, what was kind of start to finish?

 

00;11;21;04 - 00;11;31;17

JZ

I would say it was probably 14 months, maybe 15 months from RFP to groundbreaking, something in that range, which is kind of typical for a building this size.

 

00;11;31;19 - 00;11;33;17

DP

And construction. How long did that last?

 

00;11;33;22 - 00;11;37;10

JZ

That was about 24 months, I think.

 

00;11;37;13 - 00;11;49;12

DP

So let's talk a little bit about esthetics style. What did the client say to you? Did they have any ideas? Were they showing you images that they'd like, buildings that they wanted you to look at?

 

00;11;49;14 - 00;13;38;12

JZ

Our main client point of contact was also an architect, so he didn't want to impose a specific sensibility. He wanted to see what we would come up with in our office does this kind of work. We don't really do much historicist work. It's all modern. And in fact, a contemporary design is part of the zoning in the Powerhouse Arts District.

 

They're not looking for a recreation of a 19th century Main Street because that's not what this part of town ever was. From its get go, there was never any question it was going to be a contemporary building as far as where we drew our inspiration from and what we were looking at. You know, I mentioned the difficulty of the massing for these midnight buildings.

 

I think the gathering together, the window openings into these vertical slots helps to emphasize the verticality of the building. We have this prominent gold portal for the black boxes here and the building entrance. And that became an idea that we repeated throughout the facade frame, these moments on the facade. And I think generally we try to be pretty rigorous about how the facades are designed.

 

Obviously you've got structural continuity, but then you've got what always happens in residential design is you've got living rooms that are one width and you've got bedrooms that are a different width. And so a strictly rational grid is probably not going to serve you well for a residential building the way it does for a commercial building. So you're often trying to find a way to manage that if your interest is fundamentally in having a kind of rigorous and rational facade, you're trying to find a way to manage those partitions hitting the wall.

 

And what does that mean? And at the same time, I think creating a facade with movement and interest and dynamism and that play on the facade I think was always an important part. And you could say it is part of the emphasis on the arts and the theater and dance, but also obviously just an interest in creating something fresh.

 

00;13;38;15 - 00;13;40;27

DP

So was there a city review of the esthetic?

 

00;13;40;29 - 00;14;04;29

JZ

There was, yeah. They loved it. They loved it from the get go. Honestly, it was great. I think the planning board there has seen a lot of different things and was quite happy to see a building that was elegant and carefully composed and well-made. I'm pretty sure we got a uniform unanimous vote of approval at the Planning Board and there were no negative comments about the esthetics.

 

00;14;05;01 - 00;14;08;20

DP

What did you guys bring in? Did you bring in boards with images or 3D?

 

00;14;08;22 - 00;14;40;18

JZ

They weren't set up to have digital presentations back when this was going through. They are now obviously everyone, all of the local jurisdictions became fully digital because they had to. Back then it was easels and boards and you sat there with a couple of easels and flipped the pages and described what you were doing. And we had renderings certainly full 3D visualizations of the building that we presented and a palette of materials.

 

They're very interested. In fact, in Jersey City, they require you to bring the actual physical materials you intend to build with to the planning approval.

 

00;14;40;25 - 00;14;46;24

DP

So why did you guys choose Brick? You probably could have used another material for the exterior facade.

 

00;14;46;27 - 00;16;37;10

JZ

We could have certainly. You know, there's many things we do do facades out of lots of different materials, obviously. But for residential buildings in particular, I think the scale and the intimacy of brick are a sure way to give the building a residential character. It makes people both potential tenants and non tenants on the street and everyone have a very warm response to Brick almost instinctively.

 

It's one of those things that the mind already knows, right? People respond to it quite well. I think the flexibility of brick was part of it for this. Obviously that acute corner right there is a custom shape. You can just do that in brick, right? You can just say, okay, I've got a corner that is 72 degrees and you just do it.

 

You just make it. So that part of it I think is pretty great. And the flexibility, the color in this particular case, this is a custom colored brick, semi-custom. We had a lot of flexibility. It's a coated brick. So we had a lot of flexibility with the coating and coming up with the exact color that we wanted, which was a lot of trial and error.

 

There were actually months of back and forth and getting it just right. And, you know, I do think color is incredibly important and you can spend a year and a half designing a building and two years building it, and then you get the color wrong and all anyone sees is the fact that the color is wrong. So it's incredibly important to get right.

 

It allowed us to do that. You know, if you're going to do a porcelain, here are the three porcelain, you know, and this is what you're going to get. It also helps in the way brick turns corners. We wanted to have these gold shrouds in some areas and not in others that frame certain openings Doing returns in window openings in brick is incredibly easy because it's a brick.

 

You just turn the corner in porcelain or terracotta or other materials. It becomes quite difficult. Is it just a shadow gap at the corner or is it two flat panels coming together to meet? So I think having that ease of turning corners supported the design concept of these intermittent gold shrouds.

 

00;16;37;17 - 00;16;40;18

DP

Now, was that correct? The window frames are bronze?

 

00;16;40;21 - 00;16;43;24

JZ

With a painted aluminum, but yeah, they're bronze colored.

 

00;16;43;26 - 00;16;46;29

DP

There are a series of framed out window openings as well.

 

00;16;47;01 - 00;16;47;17

JZ

Yeah.

 

00;16;47;18 - 00;16;49;01

DP

And what material is that?

 

00;16;49;03 - 00;16;53;27

JZ

That's also aluminum. Okay. Yeah. We have yet to do a building with actual sheet bronze.

 

00;16;53;29 - 00;16;56;12

DP

When I read it, I was like, Is that just the color?

 

00;16;56;16 - 00;17;06;01

JZ

Which is the great thing though, actually is color is usually free if you're going to do something out of aluminum, the one thing you can afford to do is change the color.

 

00;17;06;03 - 00;17;20;23

DP

That's a great point. Colors free. What I really like about this and the use of masonry is it afforded you the ability to make some of these window openings really deep? Yeah, it's really beautiful, especially with curtain, wall, glass. I mean, it's really pretty.

 

00;17;20;26 - 00;17;48;09

JZ

I think you get that play of light and shadow, you know, in a curtain wall building, you're struggling to get a couple of inches of depth, right. The economics of that and the construct ability of that are unrelenting, but between the depth of a brick cavity wall automatically gets you seven or eight inches and then he shrouds project, I forget, but let's just say it's another six or seven inches. Now you've got 15, 16 inches of depth, which creates a wonderful shadow on the facade and really helps to punctuate the facade.

 

00;17;48;11 - 00;17;54;06

DP

That kind of plays into my next question. So what were some of the unique construction details on this building?

 

00;17;54;13 - 00;18;20;10

JZ

Yeah, certainly the shrouds, I think you see them more now. I think they were less common when we first did them. They are quite deep, which made the attachment to the building. I'm like say more difficult, but it had to be done differently. A lot of times these will be clipped on to the window extrusion and the window manufacturer can simply provide them.

 

You know, obviously the wind wants to tear these things off of the building. So there's a decent amount of load on these that required some careful detailing around the attachments of them.

 

00;18;20;13 - 00;18;23;15

DP

So there's some structure on the interior that gets tied back.

 

00;18;23;17 - 00;19;13;03

JZ

Yeah. These buildings basically go back to structural studs as opposed to the window and there's a heavy-duty anchor clip extends into the shroud that helps to make it rigid and attach it to the building. These deep soffits at the overhangs, you know, obviously something that had to be looked at fairly carefully. Generally speaking, a brick cavity wall is a well known thing.

 

Builders know how to build it, architects know how to detail it. But when you start introducing these kinds of deep shrouds, the corner windows in order to make those successful, what the window manufacturers want you to do is take a big square window and put it next to a big square window and all of a sudden your corner window has 12 inches a middle in the middle of it, and it looks like a column instead of a window.

 

And so detailing that to make it keep the sightlines narrow and keep it elegant, that was a detail in challenge that took a lot of time making sure the flood protection doesn't become too intrusive. That's a detail challenge. There were a handful of things.

 

00;19;13;05 - 00;19;15;21

DP

And what about sustainability for the building?

 

00;19;15;23 - 00;19;49;09

JZ

Well, it's a P-TECH building, P-TECHS are the the through wall air conditioners. They're environmentally not great. So starting from that, you have a difficult time making it the most sustainable building in the world. Unfortunately, electric P-TECHS, but there are other green features in the building. Certainly you see this in a lot of buildings at this point, but a super efficient lighting, formaldehyde free, no off gassing materials, locally sourced brick, natural material, locally sourced green roof, significant stormwater management features. It's not a leader in environmental design.

 

00;19;49;09 - 00;19;53;09

DP

Sure it is. I was I guess I was wondering if it was something that the city was looking for.

 

00;19;53;15 - 00;20;00;06

JZ

It was not a requirement, but I think there's enough consciousness about it at this point that people want to incorporate these features if they can.

 

00;20;00;09 - 00;20;03;24

DP

So when you consider the building, you're working in 2D and 3D.

 

00;20;03;29 - 00;20;08;14

JZ

Yeah. So this was drawn in AutoCAD. We weren't working in Revit back when this was first drawn.

 

00;20;08;14 - 00;20;09;15

DP

Are you now in Revit?

 

00;20;09;18 - 00;20;22;07

JZ

We are, yeah. We model absolutely everything, but we would do that mostly in SketchUp, Google, SketchUp, and that would be a parallel. You know, you would be doing both. You'd be modeling it SketchUp and drawing it in 2D AutoCAD at the same time.

 

00;20;22;09 - 00;20;24;26

DP

So you guys haven't been in Revit for a long than?

 

00;20;24;28 - 00;20;25;07

JZ

Couple of years.

 

00;20;25;07 - 00;20;34;25

DP

The more people I talk to, I'm an ArchiCAD working in 2D and 3D. I never learned Revit. I was lucky to learn how to use a computer, frankly. I mean.

 

00;20;34;28 - 00;20;44;23

JZ

Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know Revit, but the team does. I certainly learned AutoCAD along the way and micro station randomly enough. I don't even know if that's still around, to be honest.

 

00;20;44;26 - 00;20;49;25

DP

I don't know either. But most of the people that come through here are on Revit.

 

00;20;49;25 - 00;20;51;23

JZ

Yeah, it feels like a done thing.

 

00;20;51;26 - 00;20;54;08

DP

So do we see any masonry on the interior of the building?

 

00;20;54;13 - 00;21;28;21

JZ

Not in the interior walls. I will say one thing, since this is Brick works, the client led the decision that anything people could see from their windows would also be brick. So the interior courtyards, a lot of times what you see is brick on the facades and EFIS or something like that, something cheaper on the interior elevations or the lot line elevations, the courtyard facades are brick.

 

We have like, well, that's all brick because the client wanted to make sure that any time someone was looking out a window, what they saw was brick and they were happy to pay for it. They felt quite strongly that that's what it needed to be.

 

00;21;28;24 - 00;21;42;29

DP

So John, you've been in New York City for quite some time. You worked for a number of firms, including having your own office at one time. What advice might you give a younger version of yourself now that you know it?

 

00;21;43;01 - 00;22;07;09

JZ

Now that I know everything, I think you go, your heart leads you. There are so many ways to be an architect. There's not just one way and there's not one right way. And I see over and over again that people find ways that make them happy to do this job. And I do my thing. Other people do their thing.

 

There's not one answer. And don't be afraid to not pursue that other answer for yourself.

 

00;22;07;11 - 00;22;33;02

DP

Yeah, it's interesting too, what you learn in school and then what you learn as a practicing architect. You can take those skills and do an awful lot of things that aren't just architecture. I say that a lot. I have a teaching YouTube channel and I've been talking about that for years. We learn how to do so many things and you got to do so many things well and you've got to know so many things about so many things, right? It's a really challenging business and you're always learning.

 

00;22;33;02 - 00;22;59;06

JZ

The synthesizing of a lot of different pieces of information, I think is a skill that has broad application, and looking at things from a design perspective is an exceedingly rare quality out there in the world that I think has broad application. So it's great to be trained as an architect even if you don't stick with it. And look, I've always loved it.

 

I would encourage young people to stay in the profession because it's a great thing to do with your life, but people make their own choices.

 

00;22;59;08 - 00;23;07;13

DP

Well, John, it's been great to have you here. Thanks so much for your time. Where can people go to learn more about Fogarty Finger Architecture and Interiors and yourself?

 

00;23;07;16 - 00;23;20;04

JZ

Go to our website for sure. FogartyFinger.com, and look at our portfolio and there's all kinds of interesting information there. Of course, we have an Instagram page and every other thing that's available out there in the world to learn about a firm. You can find it online.

 

00;23;20;06 - 00;23;22;02

DP

Well, great, John, thank you very much for being here.

 

00;23;22;08 - 00;23;26;26

JZ

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

TRANSCRIPT

 

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;12

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;14 - 00;00;30;13

Peter Miller (PM)

Gentrification is always an issue in New York City, and trying to deal with that in a responsible way as an architect is something we often think about. Some people, you know, have a problem with larger buildings, but we're not talking about towers. The most bulk is on avenue is where I think people are a bit more comfortable. And because we're bringing residential into the neighborhood, that's usually something that's appreciated.

 

Everyone in New York believes rents and housing prices are too high and we need a greater supply.

 

00;00;30;18 - 00;01;00;18

DP

This is my guest, Peter Miller. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault we highlight Peter's project 625 Rogers Avenue. 625 Rogers Avenue is the site for a new mixed-use building with a primary use of residential ground level, commercial and community facility uses with a below grade enclosed parking lot. The architectural design for the building divides the overall mass into two distinct volumes a lower and upper.

 

The lower is a rectilinear form that relates to historic buildings in the area. This volume is meant to create a more contextual streetscape and a friendly residential feel. In contrast, the higher recessed form is articulated to relate to the new character of the neighborhood. It steps back and recedes as it rises, making it more private and less visible from the street.

 

The lower form is brick, the upper is stucco, the lower is dark, the upper is light. A side yard is included along the south elevation for more daylight glass and a restaurant terrace. Hi, I'm Doug Pat, and this is Design Vault. Peter Miller is a partner of Palatte Architecture, which he co-founded in 2010. He holds a B.S. in architecture from Washington University in Saint Louis and a master's degree from the Graduate School of Architecture, Planning and Preservation at Columbia University.

 

Peter is a director of the Executive Board of AIA New York and a Design for Freedom Working Group member. He's a registered architect with 20 plus years of experience focusing on designing and implementing innovative building systems and components. His notable projects include Grace Farms in New Canaan, Connecticut, The National World War Two Museum in New Orleans, The Revitalization of Forest Park in Saint Louis, the Confluence Masterplan of Missouri and NYC HPD's Small Lots Development Program.

 

Peter's work has won many design awards, including several AIA National Honors Awards and the Mies Crown Hall America's Prize. His work has been featured in Architectural Record, Elder Corps, Fast Company, The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times. He's originally from rural Indiana and is from a family of craftsmen, engineers, entrepreneurs and tinkerers. He treasures the creative process of turning ideas into physical form.

 

So welcome, Peter. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Palatte Architecture in New York City. So it was founded in 2010. Where are you guys located In the city. What's the size of the firm? What type of work do you do?

 

00;03;17;08 - 00;04;01;09

PM

So we're located in the, I like to say the Union Square area. We're on 16th Street and Sixth Avenue. We are 11 people in total, three partners and eight architects. The work that we primarily do is residential in nature. It spans from multifamily, residential in the mid-sized range. 50 dwellings is probably an average size for a mid-sized development to custom residential townhouse projects within the city and custom houses ground up outside of the city.

 

In addition to the residential work, we do a variety of other things early education is a big part of what we do. Preschools, daycares, things of that nature, and some other commercial projects spanning from retail to restaurants.

 

00;04;01;12 - 00;04;02;08

DP

How's business?

 

00;04;02;14 - 00;04;30;04

PM

Businesses up and down. You know, when you own your own business, it's always a rollercoaster. I would say we're busy. There is a lot of work being constructed right now. We have a lot of projects in construction. Design work continues to come in. It's not quite as strong as it was a year ago. I think interest rates are affecting particularly the custom residential side of our business, but the multifamily business continues to be booming. We stay busy.

 

00;04;30;07 - 00;04;31;28

DP

Has the firm grown?

 

00;04;32;01 - 00;04;52;08

PM

We try very hard to stay the same size. We have a team of people that we really like and we trust them. And I think a big part of who we are is the consistency within our office. So when times get slow, we find ways to keep those people productive, and when times are busy, they go the extra mile for us and they put in the extra work.

 

00;04;52;10 - 00;04;59;17

DP

So tell us a little bit about yourself. So how long have you been practicing and what's your role in the office as a partner?

 

00;04;59;20 - 00;06;10;10

PM

So I've been practicing since early 2000s. I attended Columbia University for graduate school and finished in 2006 and spent a better part of a decade working for well-known firms, doing international projects, particularly of like museums and high end residential. We formed Palatte Architecture. I had two business partners, John Sunwoo and Jeff Wanders, and then we met at Columbia in studio, and there was always an idea that we wanted to work together.

 

It took a while. We had our own careers in other firms for a while and came back together and formed the office in 2010, but it took a little while to get off the ground. Within the firm my role is partner. We are fairly equal. It's one of our core elements at Pallet architecture, the three partners. We have complementary skills, but we all can perform anything within the office.

 

Projects are organized where each partner is in charge of one, and then beyond that, we have some other roles. One of my roles is sort of business management and human resources, so I do that in addition to all the design work, the construction administration.

 

00;06;10;09 - 00;06;15;17

DP

All right, so let's dig in here and talk about 625 Rogers Avenue. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;06;15;19 - 00;07;07;25

PM

So this is with a client we've been working with for a while is a little bit of background on Palette Architecture. We really started this firm fairly early in our careers. As such, we didn't have as many connections. A lot of things started out as they do in sort of those classic ideas of architecture. You're doing somebody's bathroom, somebody's kitchen, and then you do a good job and you end up doing their house and eventually you work your way up.

 

So it's been that way. We met this client when we were doing a lot of houses and they were looking to turn a house into a residential building, a multifamily four. So it was to turn like a big townhouse into a four family. And so we did that project for them and we built a relationship that's led to, I think, ten different projects with them now.

 

And this is the latest one. And so they've grown in scale each time. And this one's, I think, 25 units.

 

00;07;08;02 - 00;07;14;29

DP

The project is considerable size. So give us a little history of the location and what was there prior.

 

00;07;15;01 - 00;08;17;11

PM

This is in the Prospect Lefferts neighborhood of Brooklyn. So that is on the northeast side of Prospect Park. We've done a number of projects in this area. The site before this was largely vacant, there was a couple of dilapidated houses in that area. It was mostly a small demo and clearing the project is near the corner of Parkside and Rogers Avenue.

 

Rogers is the major thoroughfare through the Prospect Lefferts neighborhood. We do not have the actual corner lot, which was kind of an unusual situation in terms of design. There is a small brick building on the corner that has a bodega in the ground floor. Adjacent to them there was an easement in place for them to have access to the back of their building.

 

So we have a minimum of eight feet that we needed to keep open between us in their building. So we ended up with a building that had two facades, even though it wasn't on a corner because of the easement.

 

00;08;17;13 - 00;08;22;24

DP

So tell me a little bit about the scope of the project and the client's programmatic requirements.

 

00;08;22;26 - 00;09;08;03

PM

So the scope of the project is largely multi-family residential. As with any case, working with a developer, you know, it's maximizing units and floor area for the residential use. However, because it's on Rogers Avenue, which is a major thoroughfare, there was an overlay for commercial. So there was a desire to try to put as much commercial in here as was viable in terms of sales. On the ground floor we have two commercial spaces. One is designed to be a restaurant and the other is a bit more flexible, likely to be more of a retail establishment. And then in addition, there is a small community facility space on the ground floor. There is a lobby also on the ground floor that leads up to the residential spaces. And there is five floors, two through six, that is residential apartments above.

 

00;09;08;05 - 00;09;12;03

DP

So building plan. Could you describe that on the site shape?

 

 

00;09;12;05 - 00;09;27;04

PM

Yeah. So it's L-shaped, I would say, with one of the major legs being across Rogers Avenue and the other leg running parallel to this easement that I mentioned before. And then there is a courtyard in the back portion of the L.

 

00;09;27;06 - 00;09;33;10

DP

So project restrictions, zoning codes. What were you guys dealing with out there other than the easement?

 

00;09;33;12 - 00;10;21;05

PM

One of the things that has generated a lot of our work in Prospect Lefferts Gardens is there was a zoning change probably about a decade ago that allowed for larger bulk in the area. So a lot of the buildings along Rogers Avenue and in other parts of the neighborhood, are suddenly getting a lot bigger. And in some cases you're seeing full tear downs.

 

In some cases you're seeing vertical enlargements. In our case, it was important to have this contextual approach that some of the smaller buildings were going to remain for decades and others were going to instantly become larger. So we wanted something the span between those. That meant having a form that followed the context of those smaller buildings. So it's larger up to a setback, and then it sets back at the height of our neighbors and then becomes something a bit more fanciful above.

 

00;10;21;07 - 00;10;28;09

DP

I'm thinking about the neighbors, right? And I'm thinking about the neighborhood. And you said these buildings are getting bigger. Is that driving anybody crazy?

 

00;10;28;12 - 00;11;09;05

PM

Oh, certainly. It's a mixed neighborhood and gentrification is always an issue in New York City. And trying to deal with that in a responsible way as an architect is something we often think about. And it's certainly an issue in this neighborhood as well. Some people, you know, have a problem with larger buildings, but we're not talking about towers.

 

The bulk has risen from like four stories to six or seven stories. So it's a bit bigger. The most bulk is on avenues where I think people are a bit more comfortable with it. And because we're bringing residential into the neighborhood, that's usually something that's appreciated. Everyone in New York believes rents and housing prices are too high and that we need a greater supply. So there isn't a lot of tension, I think, on that.

 

00;11;09;08 - 00;11;17;22

DP

What is the city do in terms of review, esthetics and building height? Is there an open meeting and you guys are just about to go into construction?

 

00;11;17;29 - 00;13;21;19

PM

We are in construction. We've been in construction for almost a year. The superstructure is in place. A lot of the interiors are framed out and the building is fully enclosed. At this point, we are about to clad the exterior, so we're pretty far along in construction in terms of the city's take on the shape and the zoning of the building.

 

New York City is fairly as of right city. If you are following the zoning code, zoning text in the building code, you can largely do what you want, but it is fairly constrained, especially if you want to maximize the floor area, maximize the amount of units. So you often find yourself into these rectilinear envelopes if you're trying to maximize, but there's room for play.

 

And I think that's really what we were trying to do with this lower mass, is to build that out, make it very tight and taut and follow the context of the neighborhood. It was a bit more challenging on our site because we also had to deal with this easement. And so the easement is a whole swath of the property that you can't use.

 

You're probably aware, but in New York City, the amount that you can build is a factor of the lot size. So the larger the lot, the more you can build. However, if you're not allowed to build on a portion of the lot, then that same amount of area has to fit into a smaller envelope and so it gets tight.

 

That's kind of what led to the L-shape, is that we couldn't simply do it in a bar building across the main avenue. We had to put some sort of extension on to the back. But we were fortunate that that extension could follow the easement. So we get a lot of natural light and air from that. It's not legal light and air, which I think people from New York will be familiar with, which is something is a requirement for all apartments.

 

But we were able to get that through our courtyard and through our rear exposure. And so this was really like bonus windows and bonus light and air that we could get because of the easement. In addition, this corner building is quite a bit smaller, so we are afforded a lot of wonderful views over the top of it.

 

00;13;21;21 - 00;13;37;24

DP

So tell us a little bit about the design process. I just typed in 625 Rogers Avenue and there's a nice website that comes up and there are some great three dimensional images there that tell me a little bit about the design process. How does that work in your office and how long did it take for this project?

 

 

00;13;37;27 - 00;14;19;02

PM

The design process is usually quite rapid in New York City. I would say the actual meat of the process, which is kind of something that a lot of times you learn in school, you spend some time, you make some models, try out a few renderings and you come up with something and then you say, Well, we're not going to do this part.

 

Let's change it like that. That part of like coming to a form and a floor plan was probably an 8 to 10 week process. And then, of course, there's many stages after that coordinating with structure and mechanical and doing all the fine details and then that sort of thing, Then that's probably another couple of months.

 

00;14;19;04 - 00;14;21;21

DP

So were the clients excited about the project?

 

00;14;21;23 - 00;16;41;07

PM

Yes, they do value design a lot and so they were quite excited about it. I think there was always a question of how were we going to deal with this easement? And I think they were very excited about this idea of this lower box that is contextual. We weren't formally contextual. I think that's also probably important to mention.

 

It is a black brick, so it's not your traditional New York red brick or yellow brick that you might find in there. It is a black brick, so it is meant to pop a bit. What was important to us as a firm was to make something that was formally contextual, didn't look bigger than the neighbors didn't look imposing.

 

We're not interested in a building that like sticks out like a sore thumb. I think a lot of architects think that you need to make something flashy in order to be noticed, and then for people to come and want you to design another flashy thing that wasn't necessarily what we were after. We wanted something that had a calm facade to it and felt a bit like the neighborhood.

 

But this isn't the early 1900s, like the context was built in, so we can't do exactly that. So we were looking for something that was formally similar but materially different. And so we went with this black brick along the lower volume. And then of course we had more area to use and we had to put it somewhere. So we set it back and we gave it more articulation.

 

 

It's a bit of push and pull of rectangular volumes above, but it's a very light color and the idea was always to be set back enough to where it wasn't initially visible. It was more of a second look sort of thing that when you see the building, you're like, Oh, that feels like the size of other buildings in the neighborhood.

 

And then when you look a second time, you’re like actually it is not. And what's going on up above is really articulated and interesting. And why did they do this sort of thing? And the reason why we did a lot of that on the upper volume was to create outdoor spaces. This was a project that was conceived during the pandemic and then finalized throughout that process.

 

There was a lot of interest in our office about making outdoor spaces, particularly private outdoor spaces, beyond the size of balconies, spaces that were more of room size so that you could actually spend time outside with others and you could work outside when the weather is good. So a lot of the articulation on this upper volume was about trying to create private outdoor spaces for each of the interior units.

 

00;16;41;10 - 00;16;45;07

DP

So were there any unique construction details throughout the project?

 

00;16;45;09 - 00;18;20;15

PM

Certainly. And we are talking about brick, I'm sure, today. So I think that has a lot to do with it. We've been finding that thin brick has been really advantageous to us throughout the process. New York City is all about every inch. Every inch matters. Real estate agents will tell you that. So the thin brick does afford us a thinner wall thickness, which allows every unit to be a little bit bigger, the sales area to be a little bit bigger.

 

So that's something we'd like to do. But what we found great about the true brick system, which is what we used, is that it's a mechanically fastened thin brick which affords us new types of details. When you see the classical full brick, you can do corbelling, you can have some bricks, project out from others to create shadow lines and other types of articulation, which wasn't initially available in thin brick because everything just had to sit inside of a tray and anything that projected out would become too much of a load and either pop out.

 

And so what we were really excited about with this thin brick system, the true bricks, is that we could have a variety of brick depths while still saving these inches. And so there was a lot of thought about that in terms of details. We used different depths of thin brick to articulate slab edges and also areas of pattern and texture.

 

So within this brick volume on the base, there are strip windows. In between each strip window. We do have a textured brick that creates a bit of interest. It creates a patterned shadow on the facade, and then that is all captured in between these sort of expressed slab edges.

 

00;18;20;17 - 00;18;24;29

DP

So could you go through a wall section for me? Exterior to interior.?

 

00;18;25;01 -  00;19;29;12

PM

So we have on the exterior a variety of different depth thin bricks that snap into the true bricks tray system, which is sort of like a channel shaped system that is then attached into a kingspan karrier panel. So this is sort of an all in one cladding waterproofing insulation panel. I believe it's an XPS insulation that's wrapped in a metal panel.

 

And these are tongue and groove panels that come together and they're flashed at their tongue and groove. So the metal panel on the outside acts as waterproofing, especially when the joints are flashed. Then there is this completely separated other metal panel on the interior, the separated by this XPS installations that provides your insulation and then that interior panel allows you to attach to the studs.

 

So there's no need for sheathing or waterproofing layer or another set of insulation. It's all in one. So we have that karrier panel and then that is attached to the stud. And then on the interior of the stud we have our finishes, which is general sheetrock.

 

00;19;29;14 - 00;19;33;06

DP

And the installation values of the walls?

 

00;19;33;06 - 00;19;36;24

PM

Two and a half inches. So I'm guessing that's probably about R 14.

 

00;19;36;26 - 00;19;46;17

DP

That sounds really interesting. And using thin brick, I mean it's a veneer like anything anyway, so whether or not you're going to use something that's three and 5/8 thick or it's a half inch thick, it’s still a veneer.

 

00;19;48;19 - 00;20;22;13

PM

100% agree. We live in a world now where energy code and sustainability issues are vitally important. And for the most part we know Brick classically is like a veneer as a cladding and a structural system, but it's just really not done that way anymore. It's mostly a cladding system now because we need to have this rain screen where where air can move behind the facade, and we need continuous insulation.

 

So if it's going to be mostly a veneer. Now I'm a fan of the thin brick systems because it saves you that extra couple of inches.

 

 

00;20;22;16 - 00;20;40;15

DP

Yeah, I totally agree. And you touched on this a little bit. Just back to the esthetics. So tell us about the style choice. The building is contemporary. When I read about the architecture you guys talked about as statically trying to work with the existing architecture in the neighborhood. Tell us a little bit about that.

 

00;20;40;17 - 00;22;28;22

PM

I think it's largely about scale. So as I mentioned, we are trying to create a datum that matches with the neighbor. In terms of height. I think the concern back to what you mentioned before is that people are going to feel like their neighborhood is growing rapidly and that it feels much more urban than it used to. And so that was really important to us in terms of context to make the scale feel as if they had always known this building.

 

Beyond that, we felt that Brick was an important choice. There's a lot of brick in the neighborhood. We felt that other materials might feel too distinct from the rest of the context. I don't think it's important that we try to look exactly like the neighbors because we're in a different era, a different technology. But there needs to be some tie to the way it is.

 

And it was also sort of important to us that the windows had some sort of gridded logic to it to match the neighbors. So there's a nod to that. Beyond that, we felt freedom to go a different way. And so we relied on sort of a color choice as one way to do that, to create this darker volume on the lower part would sort of emphasize the height of the building that it matched the others because it's so present in its darkness.

 

The other thing we liked about the darkness is that it made all the details a bit more subtle. It gave us a little more freedom to do things like these patterned bricks and these shadow lines that indicated that this was a newer building and that it has some innovative techniques and details to it. But wasn't flashy to the point of look at me and forget everyone else in the neighborhood.

 

00;22;28;25 - 00;22;39;02

DP

That's well explained. So when you guys did drawings for the architecture, for the construction process, all 2D, 2D and 3D, Revit, what are you guys working out?

 

00;22;39;02 - 00;23;05;06

PM

Yeah, well, Revit. Our office is 100% BIM. We are an office that was founded since 2010. So the partners, all the employees, we all grew up in this, so we're 100% BIM. We use Revit as our software. So everything is done in Revit from beginning to end. We found this really beneficial with some of our clients too, because we can get the visualizations a lot quicker and that just makes them feel comfortable.

 

00;23;05;08 - 00;23;16;07

DP

Yeah, clients love that. Yeah, for sure. So do you guys learn anything interesting through the design in what you're currently in construction process? Anything new for you as you've been working on the architecture?

 

00;23;16;09 - 00;24;17;03

PM

Well, let's see things that I would want to talk about. Usually the lessons are the things that like you didn't see coming or you feel like you could have control. I think one thing that we really learned on this project is moving to this Kingspan panel that I mentioned before is a new thing for our office. We're doing it on two projects or two simultaneously.

 

We knew a lot about the details going into it and we really believed in it and we love it, but our contractors were not familiar with it and so there was definitely a lot of lessons in how to communicate these details because a lot of them came in and were like, They see these new Legos for the first time and they're like, Oh, they must go together like this.

 

And then you arrive at a site and you say, No, actually you put that piece on wrong. It should be like this. There was a lot of back and forth and learning about how to communicate, when to come in in the process with somebody that hasn't used the technology before and really get them up to speed on it.

 

00;24;17;06 - 00;24;42;15

DP

That's funny, yeah, GCs love that when you walk out into the field and you tell them they're wrong. Yeah, sure. Before you go, Peter, you've been an architect for some time based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for your younger version of you, or maybe for some students or young architects that are just getting rolling?

 

00;24;42;17 - 00;25;03;01

PM

Well, that's a great question. It's easier for me to advise my earlier self than advise a generic architect in school, and I hope this advice applies for me. I was always an introverted sort of person. I come from a very conservative rural background and it took me a while to learn how to really speak my voice to people.

 

And I think in school there's this sense that your work is always out there for critique and that you should be careful about everything you do. I think I've learned over time that as long as you follow your own voice and your own beliefs, that those things will fall in place. And so I would advise myself, when I was younger, to not be concerned about whether or not your voice is going to land perfectly amongst your audience.

 

I think as long as you believe in it passionately and you talk about it strongly and you think about it all the time and you critique yourself, that that will lead to stronger work and it will lead to people wanting to see your work and interact with your work and make sure that it gets built in the way that you had always imagined it.

 

00;25;03;02 - 00;25;51;16

DP

Yeah, I think that's a really beautiful way of looking at things right that it will land in the right location. You're just responsible for finding your voice and expressing it as best you can within the framework of the work that you do. That's great. So, Peter, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about Palette Architecture and yourself?

 

00;25;51;19 - 00;26;13;22

PM

Well, certainly you can go to our website, PaletteArch.com, or they can follow us on Instagram also @PaletteArch.

 

00;26;13;24 - 00;26;29;26

DP

Well, Peter, thank you very much. It's been great to have you.

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;08

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;10 - 00;00;22;07

John Hutch (JH)

One of the missions was to continue to keep the character of Broadway, of Fell's Point through those storefronts and set back the building's mass so that it was not present or felt when you're walking along the sidewalk.

 

00;00;22;14 - 00;02;25;12

DP

This is my guest, John Hutch. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from The Design Vault. We highlight John's Project Marketplace at Fell's Point. Marketplace Fell's Point is located in historic Fell's Point, Baltimore, Maryland. The new urban lifestyle apartments feature open rooms that maximize exterior daylight and the views. The bulk of the units in the marketplace project open onto private courtyard space, complete with firepits and water features.

 

Many of the units are rehabbed historic buildings from the late 1800s with large windows and special features. The apartment buildings have direct access to over 100 community retail and entertainment venues on Fell's Point waterfront. In addition to the private courtyards, the project also features a club room, lounge, fitness center and secure parking for the residents.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. John Hutch, one of the founding partners and a principal at JP2 Architects in Baltimore, Maryland. John has a Bachelor of Science degree in architecture from the University of Cincinnati. He plays an active role in the professional development and awareness of sustainable design within his firm. He brings 30 years of experience leading the design process of employing project management with an emphasis on project delivery.

 

He has a background in both public and private sector work, which provides diverse experience for all of the projects the office takes on. John has an international portfolio of mixed use projects which include corporate hospitality, retail, multifamily and entertainment facilities. So welcome, John. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about JP2 Architects, where you guys are located in Baltimore? What's the size of your firm? How long have you been around and what kind of work do you do?

 

00;02;25;14 - 00;03;00;16

JH

Great. Thanks, Doug. We are about a 20 person firm, and we're located in the Canton area of Baltimore, which is adjacent to Fell's Point, where this project is located. We founded JP2 Architects in 2006 and I have two other founding partners, Jamie Pett and Gordon Gaudet. The three of us have been working together for almost 30 years now.

 

When I moved here in 1995, I got to know the two of them and we've been friends and colleagues and now partners ever since.

 

00;03;00;18 - 00;03;02;12

DP

Wow, That's really cool. How did you meet?

 

00;03;02;13 - 00;03;19;23

JH

So we all met at the large international firm of our RTKL, and we were each in the commercial group. Although I tended to bounce around between groups, which gave me a diverse experience. But we were still young, rising up through the ranks and learning a lot.

 

00;03;20;00 - 00;03;23;19

DP

That's really interesting. Did you guys always know that you wanted to start a firm together?

 

00;03;23;21 - 00;03;54;10

JH

No. We each probably had different starting points. I'd say it was always my dream to start a firm and I can thank my parents for saying hold on, hold on, hold on, you need more experience. So when I moved here to Baltimore, met the two of them, I spent about ten or 12 years there prior to the three of us starting, and I couldn't ask for better partners.

 

We each fulfill a different niche and role in the firm and bring different experience and complement each other very, very well.

 

00;03;54;13 - 00;04;05;00

DP

That's wonderful for our listeners. Sean and I were talking before we got rolling here, and I used to work in Baltimore, Maryland for Zeiger Sneed. I guess I'm wondering if you ever ran into them.

 

00;04;05;06 - 00;04;11;06

JH

I haven't met them in person, but we still run into them every once in a while, competing on a project.

 

00;04;11;11 - 00;04;19;27

DP

I'm sure you do. I'm not sure how involved they both are in the firm at this point, but they certainly did something really wonderful in Baltimore.

 

00;04;19;29 - 00;04;37;14

JH

They have and they've won a lot of awards in the area. And why I plan to my roots here in Baltimore was because the design and architectural community is strong, thriving. It's a livable city. And I really love the passion that everybody brings to their projects and profession here.

 

00;04;37;17 - 00;04;45;04

DP

That's great to hear. So tell me a little bit about yourself. How long have you been practicing and what's your role in the office as a partner?

 

00;04;45;06 - 00;05;38;09

JH

Sure. So I graduated from Cincinnati in ‘91. That was probably not the best time to be graduating and looking for a job, but I struggled through those first few years gaining experience. And so when we started JP2, as I mentioned, as I think it's always been my dream to start a job. So a lot of the business planning, the oversight of the firm in general, my background is probably more design delivery heavy.

 

But I think one of the beauties of the practice we've established is that we have an amazing group here that all overlaps and has a terrific sense of projects and project management and design from beginning to end. So I will take on some master planning and some design roles, but I can tell you that my partners can draw circles around me.

 

00;05;38;11 - 00;06;22;00

DP

We talk a lot about this with our guests, our university experience. So you go to college and you learn about design, you know, structures and HVAC equipment and all those kinds of things. But you never really think about everybody's going to be good at something different, right? Or they're going to be good at a few things and then somebody else is going to be.

 

And so you really need that if you're going to have a partner, if you're not going to run your own office, you're going to have partners. It's really important to overlap. It's important to complement one another and then allow those people to do a good job in the areas that they're good at. Right? It's not something that anybody ever discusses in college. You get out and it becomes reality where you got to run a business and make money.

 

00;06;22;02 - 00;06;50;20

JH

Exactly. It's amazing how many hats and projects I may touch in a day, but having a team around us and having colleagues that I work closely with allows that overlap. What it does is it extends those initial ideas of a project and allows the whole team to be on board throughout the process so they know the vision, they know what we're executing when you go from a design concept to actually detailing a project and how to deliver it.

 

00;06;50;26 - 00;06;58;09

DP

So true. Okay, so let's dig in here and talk about Marketplace at Fell's Point. So how did you guys get that project?

 

00;06;58;11 - 00;07;58;06

JH

It's a wonderful, wonderful history. And we actually made contact through an ex RTKL employee who was in the landscape department and he got out of the design profession and started purchasing and renovating a lot of row houses here and Fell’s Point and Canton area. And he and another developer, David Holmes, the person I was speaking about is Dan Winter, and the two of them started realizing that they had properties near each other.

 

So that became a genesis amongst the two of them. They were pursuing a strategy of basically a garage with office above it, and it was seven or eight stories tall and the community fought them all along the way. And Dan, knowing that we had just started our practice and respecting our design skills, said, Hey, can you guys give me some advice?

 

Take a look at this. What should we do here? That was how we landed the project.

 

00;07;58;06 - 00;08;00;07

DP

And essentially the function changed?

 

00;08;00;09 - 00;08;51;22

JH

There you go. So I'd say I'm probably a frustrated developer because I love to look at something and say what belongs, what fits, and also how do you make it financially viable? The project, as initially conceived, wasn't penciling out from a financial standpoint, and it was a lesson of less is more. Why fight what should be here, which is a dense, residential neighborhood of two and a half, three and a half story tall row houses.

 

There are lot lines throughout, so we being old school, put pencil to trace and started sketching some ideas and they started to look at it and lo and behold, they started to peak their interest. They started to put some performance together and look at it and said, You know what, this works. That was a big change.

 

00;08;51;25 - 00;08;55;09

DP

Yeah. So the architect sold the developer in a way.

 

00;08;55;10 - 00;08;59;07

JH

Exactly. We brought an idea.

 

00;08;59;10 - 00;09;06;17

DP

Yeah, you brought in a great idea. So give us a little history of the location because you guys use some of the existing buildings, correct?

 

00;09;06;19 - 00;09;59;11

JH

That is correct. The site is fantastic. As you know, Fell’s Point is rooted in history going all the way back to the late 1700s and early 1800s. It's a waterfront community here on the harbor in Baltimore. And is known for shipbuilding sales, it's a port. So the establishments, bars, restaurants, all of that catered to folks who were in that industry.

 

Fell’s Point at the time, which would have been 2008, was what you probably hear about Baltimore, boarded up windows and storefronts. And a lot of these properties were not worth much. And so as Dave Holmes and Dan Winter were purchasing these, they had to have some kind of hope and vision that they could transform them.

 

00;09;59;13 - 00;10;05;18

DP

Okay. So tell me a little bit about the scope of the project and the client's programmatic requirements.

 

00;10;05;20 - 00;11;05;28

JH

Sure. The scope of the project, the buildings have historic storefronts, even though many of them, think about it is the 1800s, they were not historic, they were new. And so over time, they go through a transformation that was anything but historically sensitive. So one of the missions was to continue to keep the character of Broadway, of Fell's Point through those storefronts and set back the buildings mass so that it was not present or felt when you're walking along the sidewalk.

 

I'm starting from a massing standpoint to tell you about the program because the storefronts then would still be, and there's about 28,000 square feet of retail and and entertainment. And then there are in total, there are two blocks. There's one on the east side and one on the west side of Broadway. And they total 160 apartment units.

 

00;11;06;00 - 00;11;16;17

DP

I'm trying to picture what this looks like because we got some existing buildings down here and we do have some new architecture as well in plan form. What am I looking at?

 

00;11;16;20 - 00;11;59;23

JH

You're looking at like an amoeba. Unfortunately, apartment units don't like that shape, but the West block touches all four streets around it, so it almost has tentacles and reaches out. So along this storefront were basically 2 to 3 stories and we were able to do that and then set back. But the setback piece is more of a U-shape so that you didn't again have a mass of a building just lurking behind these.

 

You only had the ends of the U-shape. A lot of the use of brick and color and materials in that area was so that they felt like they fit in.

 

00;11;59;25 - 00;12;03;02

DP

So the retail space, is that all new architecture?

 

00;12;03;04 - 00;12;52;10

JH

It is. So the whole block has new storefronts, but they're restored. So they're restored to the historic significance. We went through many photos and did a lot of research. The Historical Society was incredibly helpful in that front. The depth of this storefront or what was behind those is new. When you go out into, say, the suburbs, you're used to a concrete podium with, say, four levels of stick frame construction above it.

 

That is essentially what we did in this project. We have a concrete podium that separates the retail use from the residential use above that's needed by code, but also makes laying out the apartments above much more easily.

 

00;12;52;12 - 00;13;03;09

DP

So let's talk a little bit about stylistic choice for the new architecture and then what you guys ultimately did to restore to the exteriors of some of these existing buildings.

 

00;13;03;12 - 00;14;21;23

JH

Terrific. Yeah, we had a good dialog with the Historic Preservation group here. One of the concerns is always when you create new are you competing or you're trying to match the historic facades. And we literally had on the west block two missing teeth that were non contributing and it was obvious they were not contributing to the historic fabric of the community.

 

So our challenge was how to blend in. And this is where Glen-Gery was incredibly helpful with the brick choices, the brick style and how we detailed it. So we went with a more simplistic detailing of soldiers and roll locks than a brick facade on both of the missing infill pieces. So you had a character that was still there but not trying to replicate, and that's how we worked on the Broadway facades. Around the perimeter, if you want to look, there are two alleys on either end of the buildings. Those are brick buildings. They fit in, but took the same approach where we use bricks so that it became part of the urban fabric without trying to mimic the historic aspects of the existing.

 

00;14;21;26 - 00;14;28;02

DP

Did Glen-Gery have bricks that matched the original bricks from that long ago? From the 1800s?

 

00;14;28;05 - 00;14;55;02

JH

No. But we had some that fit really well. There were molded bricks. We use the Catawba, which is a Cushwa line on the Broadway faces. In the back, we used 56-DD brick, which is more of a monolithic brick. So that one, it's still molded, but it was more uniform. So you did have a little bit more of a contemporary feel or use to the brick than you do on the historic facades.

 

00;14;55;05 - 00;15;10;13

DP

Interesting. So back to the planning process for a second. So you guys, you sit down, you do some sketches, you got some ideas, you talk with the developers, and then when did it turn into a project and how long did it take from beginning to end?

 

00;15;10;20 - 00;17;56;28

JH

How long do you have? I think the process started in early 2008. We started our firm in 2006, so this was a significant project for us. We worked very close with Dan Winter and Dave Holmes through this process. They had been working with the neighborhood groups, listening then what they want. So we took these bum wad sketches and floor plans and stuff like that, and then it started to become real.

 

And then we could start to put together some imagery of the facades. We could start to look at how we were affecting adjacent neighbors and start showing them a reduced massing than what was proposed before we started this project. And that started to win over some converts. And so that process and going through, which you may have heard in this area called CHAP, which is the Commission for Historic and Architectural Preservation, was that historic piece probably took a year.

 

So we were still in a design process for a good year after we started and then I'd say about another nine months to a year after that, we got into construction documents again, history, right? So now we're into 2009 and we all know what happened in that era with the real estate market. So we had finished construction documents as a recession, The Great Recession was happening and the thought process was, let's file for permit. So again, I'm glad you're sitting because it is a long story. I'll try to keep it somewhat short and there are details to fill in that are fascinating. We did file in 2009. It sat for years for a number of reasons. For one, they couldn't get financing.

 

You can imagine paying 2006, 2007 prices and then suddenly the bank takes a look at your property and says it's worth a 10th of that so you don't have equity in the project anymore. And so they were running up against hurdles for this. So the project sat and they were then looking for partners that could help with the project.

 

So enter Klein Enterprises and Dolben is out of Boston, Massachusetts, and Kline is a local developer here. So they came in and basically took over the project with a little bit of revisioning. So it was probably two years after that. And the construction wound up, I think it was 2012, 2013 when we finally had substantial completion.

 

So you're looking at four or five years.

 

00;17;57;00 - 00;18;05;18

DP

Yeah, that's a long time to hang with the project, especially when you're done with the drawings and then everything just sits here like, what am I going to do now?

 

00;18;05;19 - 00;18;44;19

JH

Right, right. It was interesting. I learned a lot about developers along the way as we took the plans, took the idea to a number of other developers to partner with. Some of them didn't want anything to do with the retail piece. They love the residential, but they don't do retail. And I think that's where this partnership and where it landed was a great fit.

 

Dolben has tens of thousands of apartment units. Klein, there's a lot of mixed use, and so they were not afraid and they know the neighborhood and started to have a vision for what they could create in terms of an atmosphere and a buzz in that part of Fell's Point.

 

00;18;44;22 - 00;18;57;22

DP

So back to construction. So you're under construction. Any unique construction details that you guys came across using brick or anything else, especially with all these existing buildings out there, right?

 

00;18;57;25 - 00;20;23;26

JH

It was probably one of the most challenging projects you’re going to look at. I'm sure you've talked to a number of architects that when you do an urban infill, it's a challenge. We touch over a dozen property lines on the west block and over a dozen on the east block. Each one of those neighbors needed to be notified.

 

You had to figure out how you're going to close the gap on those property lines, how you're going to flash onto other people's party walls. Essentially, as boring as the back of the place was. We had wall sections at every property line because each one was a unique condition on the west block, where we have almost 100 apartment units, we also have an underground parking garage.

 

So we have about 60 parking spaces underground and all the initial readings or that we have a water table. So here you're creating a bathtub, you've got a water table. And I think it was Hurricane Sandy that had a storm surge that pushed water up to that block as well. So now you're thinking, okay, how do I prevent water from above and below from filling this garage?

 

And so we had to create under-floor and remediation for the ground water as it swells and being able to pump it, that water table rises and lowers. So when it rises, you're pumping 24/7.

 

00;20;23;28 - 00;20;31;06

DP

So how did you guys resolve this? You're still pumping water out of there. When the groundwater rises up and it's like a bathtub that you built.

 

00;20;31;11 - 00;20;33;07

JH

Exactly. You are.

 

00;20;33;09 - 00;20;35;17

DP

Unbelievable. That's expensive.

 

00;20;35;19 - 00;21;07;07

JH

It's expensive. And again, you can imagine, I mean, now we're 12 feet below all the properties around us as well. So there was an incredible amount of documentation of the properties adjacent to this project. To be sure these 1800 structures don't settle, don't crack, and then making deals with each one of them that if that happens, we'll repair it.

 

So there was an incredible amount of liability on the contractor owner and architects and engineers as well.

 

00;21;07;09 - 00;21;30;06

DP

Wow. You guys have a real constitution. I don't think I could handle that. Just way too much responsibility. You know, interestingly, I did some work with Habitat for Humanity when we lived in Baltimore. And I remember these brick buildings, these row homes, they were crumbling. When the brick is that old, did you guys run into issues like that?

 

00;21;30;09 - 00;22;27;06

JH

We did. The interesting part of this was finding a right contractor that could deal with this. You weren't looking at a suburban stick frame guy. They'd look at it and were scared. So we needed somebody that had some chops. We ended up with Lendlease and they did a terrific job supporting the historic facades during this time. And so we had every ten feet, a steel column going up the front of the facade and then being supported laterally with other beams and huge cement blocks to keep them from falling as things were excavated behind it.

 

So it was painstakingly slow at that point. But then also the timing had to be right in order to get the concrete slab there to then reinforce and support those walls and to tie them back in to the concrete slab so that they wouldn't, you know, fall out or fall in.

 

00;22;27;08 - 00;22;52;19

DP

It takes a special kind of person and firm to do this kind of work, to be involved in that stuff. Architects do all different kinds of jobs, right? And this is one of them working with historic architecture. So what about drawings? What kind of drawings did you guys put together for the architecture? Was it 2D, 3D, lots of details? And then of course, you had to hire engineers and do drawings for the existing condition work.

 

00;22;52;25 - 00;24;05;19

JH

That's correct. And early on there's a bit of surveying that you do. I would say that it was also incredible working with a civil engineer, because if you think each one of these properties also has utilities coming in and out of it, making sure that we're staying away from all of these. So the underground piece of this became incredibly complicated. The three dimensional aspects, my partners and I are not old, but, you know, we still do a lot by hand. So a lot of the three dimensional stuff in order to get information out there quickly was by hand a lot of two dimensional facades around the project to see how it would relate to the adjacent properties. A lot of wall sections. This would have been wonderful if we had the technology today and, you know, have a drone or something scan the existing conditions in three dimensions. There was a lot of back and forth. Fortunately, it's only a half a mile from our office, so it could be down there in a heartbeat as soon as they discovered things during construction. And that was a vital way of solving some of the problems that came up because so many of them you can't anticipate.

 

You can only suggest a solution until things get uncovered.

 

00;24;05;21 - 00;24;14;11

DP

Yeah. Instead of getting in your car and driving a half hour, you walk right out onto the street and walk down the street and you can take a look at whatever challenge you face that day.

 

00;24;14;14 - 00;24;15;08

JH

That's correct.

 

00;24;15;15 - 00;24;23;27

DP

So did your team learn anything interesting through the design and construction process? That's a loaded question.

 

00;24;24;00 - 00;26;07;16

JH

It is. And I'd say, you know, even just this discussion, you can see I mean, all of these things are something new. And I think that's the beauty of the profession. As you mentioned, you work on so many different types of projects. And what I love about how we work as a firm that we don't have these vertical silos, we work across different typologies and bring that knowledge base to each project, which lends itself to something like this where you have mixed uses.

 

So the retail spaces on the ground floor needed to have If I'm going to put a kitchen in there for a restaurant, I need exhaust. That's got to go up through a couple stories of apartment buildings. So that kind of coordination, anticipating the needs of each component so that each of them stood alone and was able to be successful on their own rather than handicapping one.

 

One of the things we were not able to do is create what would be normal for a retailer today in terms of ceiling heights. We had to hit the second floor windows of the facades. So sometimes that meant that a retailer could only have maybe a nine or ten foot ceiling in there in order to get all the ductwork and lighting and everything else below the concrete slab.

 

I'd say what we really learned was from a design perspective, how to work with the community. I think that was the big success here, that we were able to revitalize an area of Fell's Point, bring life to it, bring housing for people, for more activity, and to do that successfully where the community was extremely happy with the end result.

 

00;26;07;18 - 00;26;24;04

DP

So I'm curious, some of these brick buildings, the existing brick buildings, how did you guys handle the new interior wall systems insulation and how did that work and did that decrease then the interior space? Because some of these buildings are probably pretty narrow.

 

00;26;24;09 - 00;27;18;17

JH

That's correct. Working with a different module that you're basically given was different and you ended up with almost a wall within a wall in order to get the proper insulation and which made for some unique conditions out the windows where you notice how, you know, like suddenly you've got a big inset that's about a foot and a half to the window.

 

There were some cases where we had to bump up the ceiling or bump down the floor a little bit where some of these windows were as as much as we tried. There were some things we just couldn't change. So this section is what was fascinating on these projects in that front facade along Broadway, we had to ramp down a couple of feet in order to get to the level that was needed for those apartments.

 

So it was both in section and then also horizontally in terms of laying out apartments that utilize the existing facades.

 

00;27;18;19 - 00;27;30;22

DP

Yeah, a lot of site specific challenging conditions. I can see why being out there, being in person was really important because every building's going to be just a little bit different.

 

00;27;30;29 - 00;27;31;28

JH

That's correct.

 

00;27;32;00 - 00;27;46;16

DP

Before you go, John, you've been an architect for some time. Based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for either your younger self or maybe young architects coming up in the profession?

 

00;27;46;18 - 000;29;02;11

JH

I'd like to just call it dumb luck, but I was really, really fortunate to land in a dream job in the late eighties, and it set me on a course for a career that was, this has been phenomenal and a journey. Going to the University of Cincinnati, having a co-op program was fascinating. Your third year, you're going to work for a firm for three months and nobody wanted to work in New York City.

 

And so I said, I'll go. And that firm happened to be KPF. So I cut my teeth in college with six months working at Kohn Pedersen Fox working on international high rise structures. That set me on a course that took me from there to Disney Development to the West Coast, then back to Ohio before I even graduated college. So I tell that story because that's my advice to folks.

 

Go for it. Don't be shy. Try to find a path that speaks to your heart. And you know, it's one of the beautiful things about the United States is you can travel, you can go to another location where the jobs are, where you want to be, where you fit.

 

00;29;02;18 - 00;29;07;04

DP

Well, that's a really interesting point. I think we forget that. I certainly do.

 

00;29;07;06 - 00;29;11;03

JH

Got a little international connection that reminds me of it quite a bit.

 

00;29;11;05 - 00;29;18;18

DP

So, John, it's been great to have you here today. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about JP2 Architects and yourself?

 

00;29;18;21 - 00;29;37;17

JH

Well, we are active on social media, so your normal spots of LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Our website is JP2architects.com. And as with a lot of folks, we're looking for people to grow with us. It's an exciting time right now.

 

00;29;37;20 - 00;29;41;11

DP

That's a great little plug. Awesome, man. Well, it's been great to meet you, John.

 

00;29;41;17 - 00;29;51;29

JH

I'll do one more plug. Part of this project is an isolated corner of the 600 block of Broadway, and that is where Brickworks is located.

 

00;29;52;00 - 00;29;53;04

DP

Get out of town.

 

00;29;53;07 - 00;30;27;18

JH

So that is one of the main reasons we wanted to use this project, not only because of the incredible history and everything else associated with it. We thought for sure that corner was made for a Starbucks, a first floor and a second floor seating. But that is not going to happen in Fell's Point. Fell's Point is about local businesses, local restaurants and Brickworks Studio there is phenomenal. I love it. It is such a great fit and we love having them a resource that's just down the street.

 

00;30;27;25 - 00;30;52;07

DP

Yeah, it's kind of perfect.