TRANSCRIPT

 

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;11

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;13 - 00;00;22;00

David Gross (DG)

Most of our buildings are taller and bigger. And this was a little bit of a throwback. A five-story building, not too many square feet, but it was a challenge for us and an opportunity to look at our housing work on a smaller scale and very proud of it.

 

00;00;22;02 - 00;02;59;25

DP

This is my guest, David Gross. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we’ll highlight David's project Park and Elton.

Park and Elton is a development with 38 residential units in the Bronx, consisting of two distinct five story buildings. These buildings correspond to the Melrose Commons Urban Renewal Plan. The plan provides a range of affordable housing choices for the Bronx.

The use of simple building materials, including brick in various patterns, colors and facade wall depths, makes these modest buildings appear quite unique. The simple modern masonry cornice and the differentiation of the window header detail with soldier course patterns reference the historical brick clad buildings found throughout the district. The subtle volume and height of Park and Elton also maintain a satisfying human scale.

Construction of the buildings included sustainable design elements and incorporated New York City Green building standards. Park and Elton are considered equivalent to LEED certified buildings.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Today we're talking to David E. Gross, AIA. David earned his Master of Architecture from the University of Pennsylvania and graduated cum laude with distinction.

David is the co-founder and executive partner of GF55 Architects, a national firm with offices in New York City and Miami. GF55, has expertise in multifamily, retail, educational, hospitality and industrial architecture. Since 1984, GF55 has designed and built over 12 million square feet of housing nationally. David's projects have received two Urban Land Institute Models of Excellence awards and was the recipient of the Andrew J. Thomas Pioneer and Housing Award in 2010 from the New York City AIA chapter.

David received an award of merit for the renovation and addition of a historic and significant mid-century modern house in Rye, New York. His work has also been featured in Architectural Digest and The New York Times. Today, we're going to talk to David about GF55’s Park and Elton Project.

Welcome, David. So, before we get started, tell us a little bit about GF55 Architects. I understand your firm is in both New York City and Miami. What's the size of the firm and do the offices take the same kind of work?

 

00;03;00;04 - 00;03;17;11

DG

We're very much a New York firm with a satellite office in Miami and the Miami offices in support of the New York workload. The needs of staffing vary, and sometimes we have the ability to staff the projects through the Miami workforce as opposed to the New York workforce.

 

00;03;17;13 - 00;03;24;03

DP

So, tell us a little bit about GF55 architects, who you're the co-founding partner. How did you guys get your start?

 

00;03;24;09 - 00;03;52;06

DG

My partner, Len, he's the “F” and I - Len Fusca - we met in grad school, and we were partners right away in both architectural terms and friendship terms. Down the road, 15 years later, we met Shy, also, who's our third partner and the three of us are close professionally and friendship wise. We're all friends. We have about 50 people right now and we have a varied practice. But really a specialty in housing.

 

00;03;52;08 - 00;03;54;18

DP

How long have you had the Miami location then?

 

00;03;54;25 - 00;03;57;23

DG

I would say since 2012.

 

00;03;57;27 - 00;03;58;27

DP

Has that been helpful?

 

00;03;59;01 - 00;03;59;27

DG

Very helpful.

 

00;04;00;03 - 00;04;04;25

DP

Do you have people that you work with locally and then you also work with them in Miami?

 

00;04;04;29 - 00;04;41;01

DG

Yes. The Miami office specializes in retail. We do a large amount of retail buildout work across the country, but our main office, I would say, is New York. In New York, we do a lot of projects that are versions of Park and Elton, but much larger. We also do charter schools and medical facilities, and we're working on a large storage facility near the JFK Airport, which came to us right before COVID and then the entire process of COVID with Amazon, it was all of a sudden that's a building type that was very much in demand.

 

00;04;41;06 - 00;04;46;21

DP

Ironically, it's a good segue way to what is your role in the office. Right. Everybody's doing something different. What are you doing now?

 

00;04;46;23 - 00;05;53;26

DG

I like being an architect. You know, sometimes I find that I maybe I'm focusing on the buildings too much. I would say that my role is focusing on the long-term growth of the company and the direction of the company.

We have an outside consultant on how to manage the office because at 50 people, all of a sudden, it's way too big for any of the three partners to direct themselves. And we value the expertise that we give, and we are mature enough now to value the expertise that outside consultants give us. So, we try to run the office very professionally. And I would say that a lot of our energy about running the office is motivating the workforce and we motivate the workforce through a carrot rather than a stick.

It's not the old school where you better be here or else. We have to market – intra-office marketing is almost as important as outside marketing. We have to make sure that everyone's gratified and satisfied because anybody under 40 demands that of us. It's challenging and it's interesting and it's – I like it. It's heartwarming.

 

00;05;54;02 - 00;06;01;06

DP

It's a neat paradigm, though. I mean, thinking deeply about your employees and their well-being and wanting to keep them, I think that's wonderful.

 

00;06;01;10 - 00;06;04;13

DG

We should sign you up for the volleyball team.

 

00;06;04;16 - 00;06;05;21

DP

I need about another foot!

 

00;06;05;24 - 00;06;10;00

DG

It's not just volleyball. It's après-volleyball that they like. You know, like apres-ski.

 

00;06;10;07 - 00;06;20;00

DP

That's great. All right, so let's dig in here and talk about Park and Elton. So, Park is at 3120 Park Avenue in the Bronx. Elton is East 159th Street in the Bronx, correct?

 

00;06;20;03 - 00;06;20;17

DG

Yes.

 

00;06;20;24 - 00;06;30;14

DP

So, you're a board member of the New York State Association for Affordable Housing, the Citizens Housing and Planning Council, as well as the New York Housing Conference, correct?

 

00;06;30;20 - 00;06;30;14

DG

Yes.

 

00;06;31;09 - 00;06;41;23

DP

You're intimately familiar with affordable housing. This project, did you know it was coming up? What was the process by which you interviewed or took the job or how did that work out for you?

 

00;06;41;26 - 00;07;31;26

DG

It was actually part two of a project. That part one was maybe ten years before that. And unfortunately, the original developer passed away. One of his employees took over the job and it's a unique project for us because most of our buildings are taller and bigger. And this was a little bit of a throwback, a five-story building, not too many square feet, but it was a challenge for us and an opportunity to look at our housing work on a smaller scale and very proud of it.

As you mentioned, I'm a member of housing organizations. I grew up, my father and grandfather were builder developers and while their work wasn't affordable with a capital A, it was affordable with a small A because they built stuff that was a modest price points. And I really have a lot of familiarity with that building type.

 

00;07;32;02 - 00;07;34;13

DP

Well, it sounds like something that can be pretty gratifying.

 

00;07;34;18 - 00;08;02;16

DG

Yeah, I would say that's my main professional focus. And Parker and Elton were challenging because even though they're small in scale, they're important. One of them is on the corner and it forms a strong impact on that street. And it's a part of the South Bronx, that is, the buildings are modest. These buildings are very much a breath of fresh air to the neighborhoods. They're small, but they punch above their weight class visually.

 

00;08;02;18 - 00;08;08;10

DP

So, did the architecture in the neighborhood affect the architecture that you ultimately made?

 

00;08;08;13 - 00;09;44;13

DG

I would say the architecture in the neighborhood affected it in scale, but not in aesthetics. I think that our point was to be not oppositional, but in contrast to the older buildings and, you know, one of our mottos is creative responses with humble materials. If you look at the classic modern architects, the housing was really an issue in the 1920s and it was never about luxury materials. Despite the Barcelona Pavilion and all the history of obviously building these amazing villas in a modernist style for very wealthy people. But the focus, on paper at least, was housing for people.

And what's so great about Park and Elton is because they're a small size, we really had to focus on the details. I would say that I had a great team in the office to work with. The original designer, Dimitri Papageorgiou and I worked on the basic idea. We had a third person on the team, Emily Koustae, who was sort of sitting next to Dimitri offering her opinion, said it so smartly that we listened. And then the woman who ran the job during construction, Ingrid Aguilar, she was also very important because during the construction we started to see some opportunities with the way the brick was laid that we tested it, she looked at it, she photographed it, she brought it back to the office, we changed it. There is a detail of white brick that goes up the building as if it's like bubbles floating into the air. They become fewer as they go vertical.

 

00;09;44;13 - 00;09;45;18

DP

It's denser below.

 

00;09;45;19 - 00;09;48;19

DG

Yeah, and that was all done during the construction.

 

00;09;48;24 - 00;09;52;17

DP

So, let's start with the client's programmatic requirements. What did they want?

 

00;09;48;24 - 00;10;52;28

DG

HPD is the housing preservation development arm of the New York City government. And they have strict guidelines about what size units and what mix you can build. And they have different programs that the developer wants to qualify for to get tax credits.

So, we had to satisfy the specific program for affordability that the city and the developer had worked out. So, we satisfy that the one bedrooms are 650 square feet, studios are 475, etc., etc. There's a million requirements on how big the windows can be and what kind of air conditioning and what the energy rating is. Even though they're affordable, they're built in a very, very quality manner.

So that was the first requirement. Then there's a zoning requirement for a maximum building height and a maximum lot coverage. And there's a lot of metrics and matrices that you have to satisfy in order to finally get to the way it looks.

 

00;10;53;05 - 00;10;56;02

DP

So, there weren't any breaks given to the fact that this is affordable house.

 

00;10;56;04 - 00;11;03;22

DG

No, no special breaks. It's built into the code that you get a certain benefit from building affordable units.

 

00;11;03;24 - 00;11;07;20

DP

So, tell us about the two sites. How were they the same? How were they different?

 

00;11;07;23 - 00;12;10;19

DG

The Park is on the corner, and it has a corner window that wraps the facade, and you see it from a distance. And then Elton is an infill building on a street that is at a diagonal to the building itself. And we knew that in order to come out of this alive, both mentally and architecturally and constructability wise, we had to make the buildings the same.

So, we made them the same. The choice to use brick was an easy one because brick is so flexible, because brick is a unit that's made so that you can change it as you lay the brick which is laid by a person. So, there's a way to get richness and detail in the facade through the brick. It's super durable and the way we did it where we have the window panels are shiny black brick as opposed to the, I think, two color blend on the rest of the building gives it the texture as if it were a different material.

 

00;12;10;22 - 00;12;25;10

DP

When I was reading about the project, you said that the building plans are super simple and yet, you know, you stand back, and you look at these things and there's – you got something going on. So, tell us a little bit about the building plans. How did you make them a little less like a box?

 

00;12;25;12 - 00;14;10;09

DG

There's a little tower on the end, and on each end to give the building a little more shape, you know, lack of a better term. But that's a right out of the zoning code that allows you to do that. New York is actually very conservative because quality housing, which is the current zoning for housing encourage you to make boxes so that when you go down the street, whether it's Park Avenue or 135th Street in the Bronx, all the buildings are the same height. They're looking to create that urban scale that's consistent. And along the avenues, it's taller and along the side streets it's lower. But it's consistent. And you can see from these photographs that our building is within a few feet of the adjacent buildings. So that's how we ended up with the massing.

In terms of the windows, it's very budget constrained. So, it's not just simple materials and creative ways. The whole process, you have to find the design and there's a discipline to using the materials to change the scale. For example, if we had just drawn the elevation with the windows, it would seem like a barracks. It would just be a box and it would seem very closed. But by doing visual tricks, like adding the side panels and a different color that matches the window frame, it expands the visual impact of the window opening and it makes the scale of the implied grid larger. So, it seems airier, but in fact it's not airier. It’s a visual trick. Architects are doing that all over the world to try to bring their buildings into scale.

 

00;14;10;13 - 00;14;17;05

DP

And you change the direction of the brick, right? The way the brick is laid, and the facade undulates somewhat, right?

 

00;14;17;09 - 00;15;22;22

DG

I mean, if you zoom in on the photographs that we're looking at, the horizontal bands, they're vertical and they're a stack bond. They line up as a grid. And the regular brick in between the horizontal bands is a running bond that stagger each joint the half a dimension of the brick. So, you get a different way the sunlight hits the brick. It adds visual nuance and detail, which I think there's a criticism of buildings when they're too stark, unless they're completely stark. And then the starkness is a design feature.

But I think you need to find the details to make the building visually interesting. I think you owe that, as the architect, to the world. It’s beauty, commodity and delight since Vitruvius said it, and he probably wishes he had copyrighted that phrase because that would be a great brand in 1642. But commodity is the function, and the structure is firmness, and delight is it has to look good. I mean, that's fundamental to being an architect. It has to look good.

 

00;15;22;29 - 00;15;27;10

DP

What about the color? How did you guys choose the brown? The variations of brown.

 

00;15;27;12 - 00;16;14;15

DG

The brick has sort of a brown, gray feel, and we wanted it to seem contemporary and not traditional in any way. I think that that brick that we used, because it's such a small quantity and it's a small relatively a small building, it's a more expensive brick than the cheapest. The developer, the builder, is often looking for the least expensive.

But in this case, the difference in the cost between a better brick and a simple brick was minimal. So, we went with a more fashionable, more stylish brick that you see in other buildings around town on a taller and more higher end buildings. In fact, we use this brick in other buildings, we like this building. There's sort of a little laboratory for us to explore other ideas.

 

00;16;14;18 - 00;16;18;15

DP

How was it working with the mason in the field? Did you guys do mockups?

 

00;16;18;17 - 00;16;46;21

DG

We did mockups. I think that Ingrid, she got the guys to do what she wanted. You know, so much of the world is about how do you get the other person to hear you and how do you get the other person to do what you want? And certainly, the architect has no literal power. They have the power of persuasion. And I think we worked closely with the developer and the contractors to persuade them to help us achieve our visual goals.

 

00;16;46;23 - 00;17;03;03

DP

Yeah, clearly. We're talking a little bit about design challenges here and we're talking about how you manipulated the bricks in various ways to create a facade that looks more appealing. Did brick solve any design challenges for you guys?

 

00;17;03;05 - 00;18;18;19

DG

I mean, brick has been a success since, you know, the Egyptians. Brick has been a success since the Neanderthals almost. But brick gives you a tremendously good thermal rating in New York. Any building that is built with public money or public support has to achieve a very high green rating. It's basically a LEED rating. 20 years ago, 15 years ago, everything was LEED. It had to be rated.

Well, the New York City green enterprise standards are fundamentally a LEED goal. So, we had to achieve that. We have to do an energy certification at the end and brick is just a tremendously flexible material for that. If you use a metal panel, which is much more expensive or a terracotta panel, it isn't necessarily any more energy efficient than brick.

So, brick helps with that because it's a small unit, it's flexible. So, if you run into a funky dimension in the space between your building and the property line in the adjacent building, it's easy to manipulate. And you can work with it on the site and the guy who's laying it can work with it for you.

 

00;18;08;22 - 00;18;24;20

DP

I don't know a whole lot about building in New York City. Talk a little bit about how long was the planning process for the building. How long did the review, the City Review take? How long was the design process? Construction process start to finish?

 

00;18;24;22 - 00;19;14;29

DG

That's a good question. It takes about 9 to 10 months to design a building from start to finish. In the middle of that process, you file the drawings about five months in with the city of New York. It takes four months plus to get the drawings approved. As they are reviewing the plans and asking for more information, you're working on the plans and filling in the information. So, the filing process and the production process, the design process are running in tandem. They're running concurrently.

Then there's another 2 to 3 months for the project to have the site prepared, demolition to take place, SOE which is a Support of Excavation process, you have to support the site as it's being excavated. And then I would say a building like this takes about 18 months to build.

 

00;19;15;06 - 00;19;16;10

DP

Park or Elton?

 

00;19;16;17 - 00;19;40;10

DG

They were both built simultaneously. They weren't built one and then the other built at the same time. So, when they did the foundation on one, they were doing the foundation on the other. The concrete sub was at both sides at the same time. The brick was done at the same time. These are simple load bearing buildings where it's a block backup to a brick facade and concrete floors and load bearing concrete walls.

 

00;19;40;15 - 00;19;41;14

DP

No steel?

 

00;19;41;15 - 00;19;44;14

DG

A miscellaneous steel over the windows. Miscellaneous steel at the corners.

 

00;19;44;20 - 00;19;45;24

DP

Just steel lintels and-

 

00;19;45;27 - 00;19;59;28

DG

Yeah, not too much steel. The spans are that long. And if you look at the building without the details, the masonry is about 35% of the width of the windows. So that's a very short span.

 

00;20;00;03 - 00;20;01;24

DP

What about ARB?

 

00;20;01;26 - 00;20;50;22

DG

There is no ARB in New York City. You can build a 100-storey building and – city planning, if you need any kind of variance, or you have a zoning issue, city planning acts as the architectural arbiter of the project. But if it's a simple project like this, an as-of-right project, you would be smart to show it to a community board because the community boards, you know, that's the smallest governmental association in the city and it's really the local people who are on a community board. Obviously, it's the people that really care. And you want the community board to be a part of your process. So, the developer will meet with the community board quietly, keep it friendly. And a project like this, I don't think there was any opposition whatsoever.

 

00;20;50;22 - 00;20;55;23

DP

And you do that - you wrap up schematic design, then you meet with people that are local.

 

00;20;56;00 - 00;21;20;03

DG

Exactly. To gain support because the last thing you want is opposition. I've worked in other cities and the great thing about New York is there are hurdles in front of you, many hurdles, but they're above ground. It's not like a game, you know, a video game where the hurdles come at you as you're running. You see them in front of you. The rules are transparent, and you can work the system.

 

00;21;20;06 - 00;21;26;14

DP

And when you guys present, do you present three dimensional images that you put together, Revit or-

 

00;21;26;14 - 00;21;47;22

DG

Revit. We do all of our work on three-dimensional building information modeling. Now, we don't use any CAD. Our staff is really talented and expert at BIM, and that means that when they're drawing, the very first line is a wall, not a line. And this three dimensionals are right there. And we have some very talented renderers.

 

00;21;47;25 - 00;21;53;12

DP

I’m sure. So, did you guys learn anything through the process of designing and getting these buildings built?

 

00;21;53;14 - 00;22;21;04

DG

The architecture is a very slow-paced world. If there's a crisis, you're not doing it right. There really shouldn't be any crises. Maybe when you're young and you forgot the most fundamental thing, there’s a crisis. But at this point, I would say that these buildings were inspirational for me because the four of us, the team, we were engaged all the way through, and we kept looking at it. It was a small project, and it was exciting in that way.

 

00;22;21;07 - 00;22;24;20

DP

I'll wrap it up with an easier question – maybe a harder question.

 

00;22;24;24 - 00;22;25;29

DG

Throw them at me. Come on.

 

00;22;26;05 - 00;22;29;05

DP

You clearly have a lot of experience being an architect-

 

00;22;29;29 - 00;22;32;13

DG

I didn't start out with gray hair. I've earned-

 

00;22;32;20 - 00;22;35;11

DP

I had hair.

 

00;22;32;20 - 00;22;37;12

DG

Exactly. Sure, you have hair.

 

00;22;37;15 - 00;22;45;25

DP

So, if you had to look back and give your younger self advice that you didn't know back then. What would it be, about being an architect.

 

00;22;45;27 - 00;23;24;22

DG

That's a great question. It reminds me of something I was thinking about on the way over here in preparation for today's chat. I think in any profession - medical, legal - your user group, your client is turned off to jargon. You can't speak with technical terms or only terms that another architect would recognize. So, I try very hard to be plainspoken and put things in terms of the benefit of the client and I think that that is something that I'm good at and people respond to that because the goal is to have a dialog with your client. And I think that's the best way.

 

00;23;24;29 - 00;23;44;05

DP

You know, interestingly, growing up, you must have seen how important that was with your father and his business. Having a good relationship, being a good communicator, being positive, never telling somebody no. Yeah, we can look at that. Let's give it a shot. So, it would seem to me that you learned an awful lot from your folks.

 

00;23;44;13 - 00;23;44;27

DG

I did.

 

00;23;45;04 - 00;23;49;24

DP

Well, David, it's been great to have you here. Thank you very much for your time. Where can people go to learn more about GF55?

 

00;23;49;26 - 00;24;00;02

DG

www.gf55.com or check out our Instagram page or our Twitter feed for all the stuff about us.

 

00;24;00;03 - 00;24;03;12

DP

All right, pretty straightforward. Well, thank you very much for your time. It's great to meet you.

 

00;24;03;19 - 00;24;05;11

DG

You too. I'm sure I'll see you soon.

 

00;24;05;12 - 00;24;09;01

DP

Right on.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;09

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;11 - 00;00;35;04

David Kubik (DK)

From avenue to Avenue across all of these 11 buildings. That was generally programmatically, what was sought after by the client was good commercial space, whether it was retail or office. So then really the next question was, okay, let's look at these buildings, understand which ones were perhaps more intact, more attractive the way they were, which ones could receive some additions, and were there any buildings that just didn't have really kind of great architectural character and warranted demolition and starting over and so we had a little bit of all those.

 

00;00;35;07 - 00;02;59;25

DP

This is my guest, David Kubik, AIA. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we’ll highlight David's project called Gansevoort Row. BKSK Architects made its imprint on the Gansevoort Market Historic District in New York City with a collection of landmark approvals. The redevelopment of a full block of tattered, low rise commercial buildings near the High Line.

Through careful analysis, BKSK made a strong rationale for taller building heights and some new construction along portions of the block. The new development project has a roster of luxury retailers, commercial and office space. The row buildings include existing facades, along with a creative variety of contemporary versions. Interestingly, each new building of various sizes features a unique blend of colors and patterns of brick.

The street facades maintain a turn of the century aesthetic with traditional elements and details, while employing modern windows and expansive metal awnings.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

Today we're talking to David Kubik, AIA. David Kubik holds a Bachelor of Science and Master of Architecture degree from the University of Maryland. He joined BKSK in 2003 and was named partner in 2018.

He works on the design of both institutional and development projects and is experienced at coordinating large consultant teams with expansive layers of complexity. He is currently the partner in charge of two new high end multi residential buildings for BKSK, the Keller and 111 Charles Street, both in the West Village and the recently completed 601 Washington Street. He also led the design of two commercial development projects in the Gansevoort Market Historic District, one of which we will discuss today, the Gansevoort Row redevelopment.

David has received an award for Excellence in Design and fellowships at both the graduate and Baccalaureate levels, as well as a thesis citation. David taught Design Studio as an adjunct lecturer in the Architectural Technology program at the City University of New York. So welcome, David. Nice to have you with us today. So, tell us a little bit about BKSK in New York City.

So where are you guys located? What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;00;04 - 00;03;30;13

DK

Well, thanks for having me. A little bit more about BKSK Architects. The firm was founded in 1985. We've always, right from the beginning, been a firm focused on ambitious design, really over a broad range of typologies, whether commercial or residential institutional. And as we're going to talk about today, we have many, many projects that have obtained approval from the Landmarks Preservation Commission. That's a particularly special part of our practice. The firm is located here in New York City. We're on West 38th Street. It's currently led by six partners and we're about 50 people.

 

00;03;30;15 - 00;03;32;12

DP

So how long have you guys been in New York City?

 

00;03;32;19 - 00;03;43;26

DK

We've been here practicing since 1985, and we were down on 25th Street for a number of years. We recently moved up to West 38th Street in 2020, which was an exciting time to move an office.

 

00;03;44;02 - 00;03;46;22

DP

How was that? Was that fraught with challenges?

 

00;03;46;23 - 00;04;12;05

DK

It was fraught with challenges. We literally moved the weekend of the shutdown. So, we moved out of our old office on the Friday and moved into our new office on that Saturday. And if everyone recalls, Sunday was the day that New York City really, effectively, shut down. So, we plugged in our new server, plugged in all of our new computers, and crossed their fingers that everyone could log in remotely on Monday morning. And miraculously, it all worked.

 

00;04;12;12 - 00;04;15;02

DP

That is unbelievable. So, you guys weren't fully remote.

 

00;04;15;04 - 00;04;21;01

DK

Fully remote as many did for a number of months. But yes, all of that came down to literally a day.

 

00;04;21;08 - 00;04;25;19

DP

As an aside, did that last for employees or is everybody back in the office now?

 

00;04;25;22 - 00;04;37;12

DK

We're all back in the office now. We kind of have some flexibility in terms of working remotely like many do. You know, you can have kind of a hybrid week somewhat, but like many companies, for a number of months, we were fully remote, which is tricky for an architecture firm.

 

00;04;37;19 - 00;04;42;22

DP

Absolutely. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. So how did you end up at BKSK?

 

00;04;42;24 - 00;06;07;23

DK

Sure. So, as you noted in the introduction, I was attending University of Maryland. I grew up in New Jersey, so always had kind of a fondness for the New York City area, was really excited by the architecture that was happening there. So, while I was still a student at the University of Maryland, I did have a summer internship with Clement and Holl Span architects, who are really also well-known mid-sized firm here in New York.

After graduating, I worked for about a year and a half at Michael Graves Architect. Most people don't know this, but they did at the time have a New York City branch office. They were not just in Princeton, New Jersey. So, I worked for them for a little bit. And then in 2003, I joined BKSK Architects. And at the time I was really looking for work where I could have a heavy involvement in the creation of the construction documents and during Construction administration.

I loved the work that BKSK had. There was a real high level of design ambition and you could tell there was a real study and appreciation for the craft of what they were making. And I loved the idea that I could be both involved in the design and documentation as well as have the opportunity to be on site while it was being built, which on some of the larger firms, sometimes that's not always in the cards.

So, it was a little bit of a shift for me to go to an office that was a little bit smaller, a little bit more locally focused. But there was something that I recognized I was really interested in and BKSK was able to provide that. So, it was a really rewarding shift and I really enjoyed that practice.

 

00;06;07;25 - 00;06;13;13

DP

So now you're a partner. Has that changed at all your role in the office? Or tell us a little bit about what you do now.

 

00;06;13;16 - 00;07;17;01

DK

Sure. So obviously some things change, and I'm happy to say that many things haven't. Sure, my role has changed. I'm involved in more projects; I'm overseeing those projects in the kind of sort of senior leadership role you'd expect when you hear the term partner. But – and our office is a little bit bigger now than it was when I joined in 2003 – but,  I would say that the ethos has not changed and we still, as architects, as kind of a tight knit group there in the office, were still very much focused on what I was describing earlier, which is high level of ambition in the design work that we do. And we really like to understand how things get built and the craft in which it takes to build them.

So, we enjoy working with contractors. That's not an adversarial relationship. We like to be on site, you know, and communicate directly with the subcontractors and the general contractors. And that's a process that we see can have a lot of opportunity for collaboration. And again, doesn't have to be this sort of adversarial standoff, which sometimes it can unfortunately sort of devolve into. But we try to make sure it doesn't go there and that everyone's working together in the sandbox to create something beautiful.

 

00;07;17;08 - 00;07;24;10

DP

Let's dig in here and talk about our building. Tell us a little bit about the Gansevoort Row project. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;07;24;16 - 00;09;12;02

DK

One of our existing clients, a client that we had already completed a number of projects with us, approached us about this project over our capital. I definitely can go on and on about that. Relationships. We're really happy with that relationship. They're a terrific client. They understand what it means to do a project of quality.

And so, we were honored when they came to us about this opportunity and this site. It's on the south side of Gansevoort Street, stretching from Avenue to Avenue, from Greenwich Street to Washington Street. It's really three pieces of property. But when you look across those parcels, it's really 11 individual historic structures that occupy these three properties. So, it was really quite a collection of buildings and structures that we had to grapple with and understand. They were all a little different. Some were more carefully preserved and intact than others, but the entire site had to be presented into the Landmarks Preservation Commission and whatever we designed, they had to approve.

So, what's interesting about that process, I think right out of the gate is that, if you're working on a site that is not subject to LPC approval, the very first thing you do is understand what the local zoning regulations allow you to build. How tall can I go? How big can I go and plan? What is the bulk that's permitted? How many square feet of floor area can I build? When you're in a landmarks district, you do not have rights to that floor area. You have to present a design that is compelling and as they deem, quote unquote, appropriate. It's often the case that you do not get to realize all of the square feet or all of the bulk that zoning might describe for that particular district. And that happened here, too. We didn't reach the full floor area allowed. We realized a lot of floor area for the developer, which is of course good for them. But we did have to present something that was appropriate for the neighborhood, appropriate for the scale on the street and the specific site context that we were dealing with.

 

00;09;12;05 - 00;09;16;01

DP

So, tell us a little bit about that. So LPC is Landmark Property.

 

00;09;16;06 - 00;09;18;19

DK

Landmarks Preservation Commission, so LPC for short.

 

00;09;18;19 - 00;09;22;20

DP

And you said they had to approve what you guys designed. How does that work?

 

00;09;22;25 - 00;09;50;24

DK

Because they were in a historic district. It's the Gansevoort market district. Anything that gets proposed has to first go in front of the LPC group and they have to review it and approve it before you can get your building permit, before you can get your approval at the local building department. So, it's not a, quote unquote, as of right district where you just follow the local code, follow the local zoning and you're off and running. We have this extra step of scrutiny. Whatever we present, they ultimately have to approve.

 

00;09;51;02 - 00;10;02;25

DP

I saw a great photograph; I think it was on the website from 1938. So, tell us a little bit about the history of the site. Is it interesting and why hasn't it been developed to this point? And what has happened along the way?

 

00;10;02;29 - 00;12;06;24

DK

It is very interesting. It has many chapters which we could spend hours talking about, but I'll summarize it a little bit in the sense that there was different types of buildings that were built here, whether it was a store and loft building or more of a warehouse building or purpose built garage buildings. In this district, you would see many different types of buildings. It wasn't sort of so perfectly monolithic like in some other historic districts. And in, generally speaking, many of these buildings were built to a certain height, often around five stories, six stories. And then when the city kind of really fell into tough economic times, a lot of these buildings were cut down to two stories because it was a strategy for building owners to pay less in taxes.

Unfortunately, a lot of these quite nice historic buildings would get cut down arbitrarily to two stories because that's just what made sense if you had a store and maybe one level of offices or storage above but, they didn't really need more than that. And this area of Manhattan on the far, far west Side, you know, became this sort of meatpacking district. And it just wasn't very desirable real estate in New York City for many, many decades. And then as economic growth has kind of pushed the city in recent years and decades, you know, finally this neighborhood has become a place where it's seen as advantageous to develop. High line, obviously, changed a lot of that. The new Whitney Museum, being literally on the opposite corner from this site, changed a lot of that. And our developer, Aurora Capital, are really responsible for a lot of the development in this neighborhood.

So, they've really boosted the appeal and the economic viability of this neighborhood. So, it was interesting to really understand the history of those buildings and it was sort of time for the next chapter of what could happen with these buildings. And so, your original reference, the 1938 photo, we looked at a lot of that carefully because it was obviously history and context that matters when you're dealing with these buildings. And in some cases there were narratives about bringing some of these buildings back up to their original five story height and in other cases not, which we can get into a little bit more specifically. But yeah, it was a bit of a mixed bag.

 

00;12;06;27 - 00;12;16;16

DP

So, I understand the scope of the project was to create successful retail, commercial and office space. Tell us a little bit about the scope and then the programmatic requirements.

 

00;12;16;18 - 00;15;29;27

DK

Sure. So, from avenue to avenue, across all of these 11 buildings, that was generally programmatically what was sought after by the client was good commercial space, whether it was retail or office. So then really the next question was, okay, let's look at these buildings, understand which ones were perhaps more intact, more attractive the way they were, which ones could receive some additions. And were there any buildings that just didn't have really kind of great architectural character and warranted demolition and starting over? And so, we had a little bit of all of those. So, you know, if you start generally looking at the block on the eastern end, there were more buildings that were pretty intact, had good architectural character. And we got from a sense in the community that they were cherished a bit more than some of the others.

So, you'll see on the eastern end the scale kind of stayed down at two stories. On the western end, there were two sort of blocks of buildings, one which comprised of five store and loft buildings, almost tenement style rowhouse looking type buildings, but more commercial oriented. Those buildings were all cut down from five stories to two. So, we proposed to put a three-story addition on that two story structure and raise that to a five story building.

And then lastly, on the western end of the property, and that piece of property being directly across from the Whitney, was just a one-story garage building kind of purpose-built garage building. It was not an original building in the district and really had no kind of architectural merit or character to speak of in the historic designation report for the neighborhood, it was described as non-contributing, which is also a term they use for buildings that might be in a historic district but were really never part of the original fabric and don't have any real value or they're not adding value to the district. So that was a corner property that was deemed acceptable to kind of demolish, remove that one story structure, and build something brand new. So, on that far western end, we proposed a new six story kind of warehouse loft looking building. And this goes back to the strategy of where is it viable to add bulk and square footage for the developer to kind of realize their investment? And where does it make sense to not do that?

And so, it was in a sort of perfect, even monolithic approach. Let's just add two or three stories across the whole block from avenue and avenue. We didn't do that. We said, you know what, on the western end, it makes more architectural sense to grow the properties and go higher. And on the eastern end, it makes more sense to keep them a little lower.

What was also interesting about this project was, you could imagine the owner could have very easily said, okay, we have three pieces of property here. Let's go to three different architects and just treat them like three individual projects and go to landmarks three individual times. But we didn't do that, and I think that was really smart on behalf of the owner, regardless of who they hired, to treat this as one job because you could treat it almost like an urban design exercise, a master planning exercise, you could look at the whole block and sort of horse trade square footage and decide where was it more appropriate and palatable to pump up the square footage and where was it not. And so, I think that we recognized it as a unique opportunity. We wanted to get our heads around, immediately about, where does the architecture support this intervention and where maybe does it not.

 

00;15;30;04 - 00;15;35;06

DP

So, at the end of the day, were there any project restrictions in terms of the heights of the buildings?

 

00;15;35;13 - 00;16;57;15

DK

Definitely. There was a lot of scrutiny about height, but it wasn't coming through either a code or zoning regulation. It was coming through an in-depth conversation with the Landmarks Preservation Committee and the Community board. So, when the Landmarks Preservation Commission approves your project, their permit has a title, and at the top it's Certificate of Appropriateness. Their measure of, you know, whether or not something should be approved really centers around that term appropriateness. So, it's very subjective.

So, they're looking at the context. How tall are the buildings around you? What are the styles of those buildings? What are the colors of those buildings? Do they have a lot of glass? Do they have a little bit of glass? You know, is all of the architectural language context bulk history. So, it's about storytelling is one way we like to think about it. What is the narrative that justifies your project? Like, what is the big idea of your project? And it has to be rooted in the history of the site, the context of site, and an appropriateness. So, there was a lot of analyzation of what were these buildings.

You mentioned the 1938 photo. That was one photo that was really important. There were many others. And so, you're really crafting a story. You're telling a story. So, what we proposed, we hope, extends the sort of natural evolution of this block like I was referring to earlier. This block has many chapters, and this is just the next chapter. Buildings go up, they come down, they go up again. And this will kind of be an evolution that the neighborhood will probably continue to see.

 

00;16;57;17 - 00;17;06;02

DP

Since the process with the planning commission was so subjective, how many people are on the planning commission? Was that really challenging? Because everybody's got to agree, right?

 

00;17;06;05 - 00;17;34;27

DK

Sure. I can't recall the exact number right now. I think it's around ten commissioners. And so, you know, you have to have a majority of the commissioners to obtain approval. You don't have to have unanimous approval. We went to the Landmarks Commission two times in order to obtain that approval. But we involved ourselves with a lot of kind of community engagement and – and meetings ahead of time because we wanted to make sure that what we were bringing was something that was viable and supportable in any way that we could.

 

00;17;34;29 - 00;17;44;17

DP

So, tell us about the building plans. I would imagine as you run across the facade, some are rectangular, summer more square, but they all fill the entire block?

 

00;17;44;20 - 00;18;47;10

DK

Well, it's actually a little bit different. So, the buildings that are on corners have different requirements than buildings that are mid-block. On both the eastern and western end – on the eastern end is an existing building. That building is built full on its lot because a corner building can be built full, it doesn't have a required rear yard. So, the eastern building was a purpose-built garage building, really kind of special, unique yellow brick house has a really bright image to it and we retain that building because it has some really nice character to it. Hermes is in there right now, as a high-end retailer. That's a special condition.

In the mid-block portion of the project, there is a rear yard, and the ground floor is built full. But once you're above the ground floor, starting at the second floor and up, these buildings do have rear yards. And then our new building that we proposed on the western corner that I was talking about earlier, same situation that it's very common.

The zoning allows it. Most buildings in New York City, when you're on the corner, won't necessarily have a rear yard or a side yard or anything like that. And this building doesn't either.

 

00;18;47;13 - 00;18;54;03

DP

So, tell us a little bit about the style choices, right. I mean, it looked to me like there were at least three buildings that remained.

 

00;18;54;09 - 00;19;46;22

DK

More than that. I would say on the eastern end there are two. And then in the mid-block portion, it's one building. But historically it's really three structures. Then there's this group of five, and then there's our new warehouse building on the western end. So that's why I was saying it's kind of like 11 structures stretching across three pieces of property when you really get into it, in terms of their history. They are different styles. They're all a little different.

The one on the eastern end was kind of a garage building. The ones mid-block are more kind of a store and loft, so they have kind of commercial storefronts at the ground floor and then kind of punched opening double hung window language above that. And then on the western end, our new building was not so much a store and loft had more of a kind of a warehouse look, so much heavier masonry language with much bigger areas of glass kind of departing from the individual punch window language.

 

00;19;46;24 - 00;19;58;24

DP

So stylistically, the newer buildings are slightly more contemporary than the existing buildings. Did you have different architects working on different buildings and coming up with themes?

 

00;19;59;00 - 00;22;06;12

DK

We definitely had a pretty substantial team in this project, and we are very collaborative in the office. So regardless of what level you might be practicing at our office, we're all at the table together. Everyone's contributing ideas, which we think is a great way to work and really fun. Obviously, as you kind of break down the teams, there were certain people dedicated to certain areas of the project. I also worked really closely with my partner Todd on this project. He had a deep involvement in this as well. So, it was really kind of the two of us on this.

What I think is fun, and as a general observation across the whole block, is that once we had a clear understanding of the kind of existing language of the architecture, whether it was garage or store in loft or warehouse, when we had our interventions, we did it in such a way that was quite respectful and kind of playing off the traditional languages of those buildings, but clearly contemporary at the same time.

So, the brick detailing is done in a traditional way, but with modern techniques and modern, you know, sort of expressions that are a little bit different. So, in the mid-block building, the one that has a three-story addition on a two-story base, there we used brick that was very similar in tone to the second floor that existed, but then also came up with a very special window language that involved some terracotta tiles on the transom that allowed for bigger glass windows but a smaller masonry opening. So, it felt appropriate for the scale of that facade. And then on the corner building, we really wanted to bring the sort of large heft and substantialness of the masonry detailing that you would see on a lot of the older warehouse buildings, even some of the buildings directly across the street from us. And so, we used a technique called a concealed lintel system to allow all of our brick returns, whether they were eight inches and in some cases 12-inch brick returns. You had these really beautiful brick returns both in plan and in sections. So, above the window, the window heads, you can really see 12 inches of brick wrapping and returning to the window, which you don't always see in newer buildings now, but we thought was really important for a building like this to be well detailed like that and show that depth of masonry, which is so characteristic for a lot of the historic buildings in that neighborhood.

 

00;22;06;19 - 00;22;17;28

DP

Now, I saw some patterning running vertically along one of the taller buildings. Tell me a little bit about that because that motif appears as a lintel above the windows. What is that?

 

00;22;18;02 - 00;23;52;26

DK

Yeah, so that mid-block building that was five store and loft buildings all kind of put together on its eastern facade because the building next to it was cut down like we talked about down to two stories. It's sort of exposed on that brick facade, the sort of scar of where the chimney would have been. So, there was a very sort of roughly demolished zone on the side of that facade where you could tell by looking at it, ‘you know what? I bet you there was a masonry chimney there and it all just sort of got roughly demolished.’ But it was kind of a signature moment on the side of that building that you would really see in the historic photos, and you would see in that 1938 photo.

So, we kind of wanted to bring back that chimney scar, but we did it with these terracotta tiles and behind those tiles behind that pattern is floor to ceiling glass. So, you're getting this masonry expression on the eastern facade that brings back that very particular circumstance that that building had. But you're doing it in a way that also allows some natural light to come in the building, because this is now a commercial office building. It's not a store in loft. Those upper floors are not used for storage anymore. People are occupying those floors. So, we were looking for ways to bring in a lot of natural light into this new work environment. But we wanted to do it in such a way that again, go back to that word that was appropriate for the sort of architectural expression of the building. So yeah, it was a unique moment. And the transoms, the lintel is basically doing the same thing.

Behind that is a really tall window, but from the street it looks like a smaller window, and it looks like a size window that is appropriate for that scale of building. So, it was sort of how you can have your cake and eat it too.

 

00;23;52;28 - 00;24;00;27

DP

Yeah, it's a really interesting detail. So how long did the design process take, city review, construction, start to finish?

 

00;24;00;29 - 00;24;29;27

DK

Good question. I don't know. I don’t have all of those dates at my fingertips, but I would say that while typically a project like this in our office would take about a year to document from schematic design to 100% construction documents, I think on this project it was substantially longer. Maybe a year and a half, a year and three quarters because of the extra time it took to first seek and get that LPC approval.

Once the approval is in hand, then we can really march forward and finish those construction documents. And then the construction itself, I believe, took about two years.

 

00;24;30;04 - 00;24;31;12

DP

How many sheets were in the set?

 

00;24;31;19 - 00;24;36;22

DK

It's definitely over 200. It's probably approaching 250 sheets or something like that. Yeah, it's a big undertaking.

 

00;24;36;27 - 00;24;38;17

DP

Did you guys model this in 3D?

 

00;24;38;25 - 00;25;00;27

DK

This entire city block is in Revit. It's all one Revit file that can be broken apart because we had to issue it as three sets of construction documents. Going back to the fact that this is three properties, it had to get filed at the Department of Buildings in three pieces to match up to those pieces of property, even though it was conceived as one big thing. So, yes, three sets of drawings.

 

00;25;00;29 - 00;25;04;21

DP

Now, a job this big, do have more than one PM? Project manager.

 

00;25;04;21 - 00;25;18;07

DK

Yes. Yeah, on this project we had two, Will Russell and Evan Singer, who did a phenomenal job really combing through every detail, understanding every nook and cranny. It was a real labor of love for them. I think they enjoyed it very much and they did a great job.

 

00;25;18;09 - 00;25;29;28

DP

So, this question comes up a lot. Did sustainability ever come up in choosing the materials for the project? And clearly brick was already out there. Did you guys just say, “okay, this is what we're going to do; we never even thought about another material”?

 

00;25;30;05 - 00;27;06;14

DK

Yeah. So, this project didn't seek any particular certification, but there were many sustainable elements that we tried to incorporate whenever we could in terms of material selection. I think that was also interesting is this is a conversation about adaptive reuse. One of the most sustainable things you can do when you look at a building project is reuse existing material. If you want to reduce your carbon footprint, reuse what's there, don't bring new material on site.

Many of these facades, you know, we really carefully tried to keep as much as the brick structure, whether it's party walls, you know, load bearing walls, facade walls. We tried to keep as much of that intact as possible. There were cases where, even a little scary times, you go onto the roof and you look at these old brick parapets and, you know, they haven't been maintained or cared for in way too long. And the mortar is at this point dust. And you can literally just take your hand and take the bricks off, which it was time. We are also very grateful that this project happened when it did because, you know, I think it saved these buildings, too. They really needed this intervention. They needed this next chapter in their life.

So, we, in some cases, had to demolish brick walls and keep all the brick and catalog it, put it down on the floor, label it so that the masons could take it and then put it back up and reinstall it. So, we did a lot of that careful work in the restoration and then much of the new either additions or buildings that we designed use brick. And it was a direct sort of reaction to this historic neighborhood. There was just an abundance of it, frankly, used in many different ways, many different colors. And it was really sort of a core ingredient, if you will, to any of the architecture that you might propose here.

 

00;27;06;16 - 00;27;11;21

DP

So, I haven't seen any of the interior photos. But do we end up seeing brick on the interior of any of these buildings?

 

00;27;11;27 - 00;27;35;26

DK

On some of them, again, particularly in the places where they are existing. So, in the existing two-story portion of that store in loft building, every 25 feet was a load bearing brick wall. Many of those are still there and the retailers who took those spaces did not cover them up, which is great. We love seeing that. So, you can really see a lot of that character and some of the buildings on the eastern end. You have moments to see some of that brick, too.

 

00;27;36;03 - 00;27;43;22

DP

It looked to me like there were at least two different brick colors that were really unique to this job. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

 

00;27;43;27 - 00;28;51;12

DK

So, the two brick colors on the project that we're talking about right now is a kind of a standard red brick that went on our three-story addition over the two-story existing structure. And that was kind of a nice interplay between a nice, textured, more modern looking red brick, but clearly still relating to the historic red brick that was right below it. So, you can distinguish the difference, but it's subtle.

On the corner building, there is a more sort of neutral what you might think is a more modern brick color. It's a Glen-Gery glacier gray brick. It has a lot of kind of nice texture and variation to it, which we were really attracted by. And it is perhaps a little bit more neutral, a little bit more contemporary of a tone.

That said, there are many large six story warehouse buildings directly across the street from us on Washington Street on that block facing the river. And many of those buildings had some pretty neutral tones in their brick selection as well. Maybe perhaps a little bit creamier, a little bit warmer, but not that different from what we were proposing there. So, we thought it was kind of a nice sort of interplay between those tones and still felt quite appropriate in the color.

 

00;28;51;17 - 00;28;59;24

DP

And how did you guys ultimately find the right colors for the bricks? Did you guys simply have samples in the office, or did you go out and take a look at them?

 

00;29;00;02 - 00;29;49;10

DK

Yeah, both. So, we really want to gain all those samples in the office and kind of build a library that we can consider. We looked at mockups on site to make sure that we were really happy with it and just walking around the neighborhood looking at these tones and seeing really how they relate. So again, it's nice to feel like the selection is growing right out of the context, but with a little bit of a modern twist, we think is actually quite nice.

And that brick in particular, we really loved the variation in the shading. You get kind of different colors within it. There is a little bit of texture and stippling to the brick finish as well, and we kind of joke around that sometimes if you look at a material sample up close, you think it looks messy, but it's that messiness. When you put it at a building scale or an urban scale that really makes that brick look good and crafted. So having that texture we think is kind of important.

 

00;29;49;12 - 00;29;57;20

DP

That's a really good point. So, did your team learn anything interesting through the design and construction process? Anything come to light that was like, this is kind of cool?

 

00;29;57;28 - 00;30;55;01

DK

I think what's just fun about designing in brick is it's a particular knowledge set. It's kind of its own craft or game if you want to call it that. You really have to think about the module of brick and how it wants to be used. We know a typical module for brick is either eight inches or twelve inches, quite commonly, and when you start designing your building, you have to be thinking about that brick module from day one, how it courses out vertically, how it courses out horizontally.

There were moments we learned a little bit of the hard way where we thought we had it exactly right and we didn't have it exactly right. And we had to make changes on the fly. Work carefully with the subcontractor, but you can't ignore the module of brick. You have to kind of work with it, don't work against it, and your details should sort of celebrate the natural dimensions of that brick. And I think we learned a lot about that. We had done already a number of brick buildings in our history of the firm, but this one really had a little bit of everything in it, which was really quite fun.

 

00;30;55;03 - 00;31;08;02

DP

Isn’t it interesting that we deal with buildings, but we're really dealing with math, right? Everything has to kind of fit into those modules.

So, did you guys have any trouble finding a great mason to work with on the process?

 

00;31;08;09 - 00;31;56;12

DK

So, we rely very much on our contractors to find those subcontractors. So, we worked with a great general contractor here who did find their way to a mason who you could tell right from the beginning was enjoying their craft. They would constantly ask us questions because they just wanted to make sure that they were getting it right per the design intent. And we thought that was really great.

Again, going back to something I said earlier, it was a good collaborative, positive relationship between everyone because we just wanted to make these buildings, you know, as best we could. And so, I think that mason did an excellent job in this project, and it really shows if you walk the block. And whether you're looking at very careful noodling and restoration on the buildings to the east, or the obviously more expansive, impressive new construction on the west, all the detailing, all the construction is very tight. It looks great.

 

00;31;56;18 - 00;32;03;21

DP

It's good to hear. So, this is the last tough question I've got for you. You've been an architect for some time, I would imagine. 20, 25 years.

 

00;32;03;26 - 00;32;07;14

DK

23. Yeah, depending on when you want to start the clock. But yeah, somewhere in there.

 

00;32;07;14 - 00;32;14;24

DP

Right. Exactly. So, if you could give your younger self some career advice, based on who you are now, what would it be?

 

00;32;14;26 - 00;33;36;07

DK

I guess I would say, and it's something that's been important to me, and I guess it was a bit of a leap of faith, I kind of found my way to BKSK architects for a reason. I feel lucky that I ended up there, frankly. It reinforced an interest I had, which is really to understand what you're making.

I enjoy design very much. You know, we want to blue sky and think very ambitiously about what a project could be. You want to push the envelope. But I always like to couple that with the reality of how something gets built. And I think that constant tension, if you will, about being ambitious, trying something new, being innovative, I always want to couple that with understanding how you build because a lot of times the innovation will grow out of something quite conventional, or an observation about how things get built. ‘Well, this is how we normally do it.’ Well, what if you just did it the normal way, but turned it 90 degrees and now you have a new detail and you can express things differently. So, those two things don't have to fight each other, and they could actually reinforce each other. And I think that's something that I've tried to instill in people who have worked for me or when I've taught at City Tech. I think that is something that I've found to be a kind of rewarding aspect of the practice. I also think that goes back to where I went to school at University of Maryland. That was something that was kind of a core part of their ethos and their pedagogy about what they taught. And I think it's important and I recognize the sort of value of it as a practicing architect.

 

00;33;36;09 - 00;33;55;16

DP

Back when I was in Maryland, working in Baltimore, I was out on set with a contractor and he said, “Doug, do us a favor. Do yourself a favor. Always draw something that can be built.” So, learn construction, right? You may be an architect and you may want to be a designer, but you've got to learn how everything goes together first. That’s great advice.

 

00;33;55;18 - 00;34;20;00

DK

Yeah. And we try to practice this in our office now. Myself and my partners, we all kind of grew up together here at the firm. Once you get through one really big project of consequence, it makes you a better designer for the next project. It's like learning a language. It's like learning a grammar. Once you understand it and can speak the language and know how to form sentences and the structure of it all, it just makes you a better designer for the next one.

 

00;34;20;04 - 00;34;26;16

DP

Absolutely. David, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about BKSK architects?

 

00;34;26;23 - 00;34;35;25

DK

bksk.com Please go ahead and visit. We're also on all of the major social media platforms. Welcome anyone's input, or anyone wants to reach out.

 

00;34;36;01 - 00;34;38;19

DP

Awesome. Thank you very much. It’s been great to have you as a guest.

 

00;34;38;21 - 00;34;42;15

DK

Thanks for having me. This was really fun.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;03 - 00;00;05;13

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;15 - 00;00;36;20

Sussan Lari (SL)

The idea become into doing a L-shape design, and because it was kind of long L-shape, it gave me the opportunity to create the design as there are certain components of structures together with the playfulness of the roof, which is important for Tudor style and also different height and introduction of stucco and introduction of wood paneling, framing, stucco and brick.

 

00;00;36;23 - 00;02;42;08

DP

This is my guest, Sussan Lari. I'll share more about her shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault we’ll highlight Sussan's project, Henhawk House. This project was a renovation and major expansion of an existing 4,100 square foot residence. The new home is approximately 13,300 square feet.

The home features steeply pitched slate roofs, multiple gables of varying size, light red brick facades and half-timbered elevations with stucco infill and light gray wood. The homemade brick is highly detailed, with soldier, diagonal and herringbone coursing. The design also features tall, narrow windows, elliptical masonry archways and red copper gable finials, all of which reference early English domestic architecture and of course, the Tudor style. Although the exterior of the house is a traditional design language, the inside is completely open, functional, expansive, bright and modern.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat, and this is Design Vault.

Today we're talking to Sussan Lari, AIA. Sussan is a graduate of the University of Tehran School of Architecture in her native Iran. Sussan continued her studies in America with two master's degrees in architecture and planning from the University of Pennsylvania. She began her professional career with the Eggers group, P.C. in New York, where she was the first woman to be named vice president.

Sussan founded her own firm in 1992. Her businesses have full service, boutique, architectural and design build firm that crafts custom residential and commercial architecture in the greater tri state area. Sussan was elected president of the Long Island chapter of the American Institute of Architects for the year 2000, and her firm is an ongoing member. Sussan Lari, Architect, P.C. is celebrating their 30-year anniversary.

So, let's get into the details. Welcome, Sussan.

 

00;02;42;13 - 00;02;43;12

SL

Thank you.

 

00;02;43;14 - 00;02;51;15

DP

So, Susan, tell us a little bit about your firm. Where are you located? What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you typically do?

 

00;02;51;21 - 00;03;43;22

SL

My firm, located in Village of Rosslyn in Long Island. It's about half an hour drive from Manhattan, is on the north shore of Long Island, Nassau County. The space that we occupy is a very old building that was built in 1796. And we actually are the very first tenant of that upper portion of the building. The building was used mostly for offices, for timber construction. And it's a landmark building.

The owner of the building eventually was changed and turned into medical offices on the lower level. And then the upper portion was like an office space and a magnificent space in the attic that has never been used.

 

00;03;43;25 - 00;03;47;25

DP

And the space worked out in terms of your size and number of people you have.

 

00;03;48;00 - 00;05;05;05

SL

You know, I always wanted to have a smaller firm. I am a bit of a control freak, a bit OCD with perfectionism. So fortunately, or unfortunately, applies to my projects as well. I need to be intimately involved in the entire process, not only design but also selection of material finishes, you know, detailing selection of the trades. So, I thought that we really wouldn't and shouldn't have many, many projects at once.

So, my intention has never been to have a very large office. So, we all kind of involve on purpose intimately with every single project going on in the office. I believe that if I get my staff involved in the life of the project, then they will be more interested to contribute and perform to their best ability and they’re all involved with the client. So, it's like we all together. The number of people working for me at this point are five. So, we are six of us altogether. And at this point and for a while actually majority of our concentration has been on residential projects.

 

00;05;05;07 - 00;05;09;03

DP

So, what is your role in the office? What are you involved with?

 

00;05;09;06 - 00;05;11;01

SL

I put so many different hats.

 

00;05;11;04 - 00;05;12;13

DP

I kind of thought so.

 

00;05;12;15 - 00;06;00;03

SL

It's bringing marketing and bring client in. Although I have help. But then interviewing, accepting the project, preparing fee proposals. Design is all mine. That's what I do. Although right now Riccardo from my office, who is actually on paternal leave, has trained to be very good designer as well. As much as possible, I could make it happen, I let him get involved to have his point of view and he's really getting better and better. Majority I would say the concept is mine, detailing is mine, the bricks should be on an angle is mine, the interior architecture is mine, furniture furnishing... So I do a lot.

 

00;06;00;05 - 00;06;06;01

DP

So, tell me, you do a lot of drawing by hand, a lot of sketching. Is that the way you pass along your information and the ideas?

 

00;06;06;04 - 00;06;17;20

SL

No. Actually, yes, I do hand sketch. I do hand sketch during schematic and when I would like to explain an idea is all hand sketch, but everything else is CAD.

 

00;06;17;22 - 00;06;20;03

DP

Okay, so what CAD system are you guys on?

 

00;06;20;10 - 00;06;57;29

SL

Your basic CAD. Actually, because we are too detailed. I checked all different advancements of CAD, and I kind of thought that what we have, which is really basic CAD, has been incredibly helpful for us to provide us the possibility to go detailed. We detail everything. Like our set of construction drawing is close to maybe 30 drawings, just architecture. And when it gets to interior architecture is another like 30 drawings. We detail like cabinetry and bathroom tiles, that kind of stuff.

 

00;06;57;29 - 00;07;04;16

DP

Yeah, you get into everything. So, let's talk about the Henhawk house. So, tell me how your office got the project.

 

00;07;04;18 - 00;07;07;05

SL

Well, as usual, they find us-

 

00;07;07;07 - 00;07;07;26

DP

Word of mouth?

 

00;07;08;03 - 00;07;36;26

SL

Word of mouth. And they came to us. And it's a young couple. Very young. And the house was - they fall in love with the land. Location is really a fantastic location. The tree lined boulevard type street in Long Island. The house itself was Tudor style, brick, relatively small. Zoning wise, we were allowed to build close to 8,000 square feet and the existing house was close to 4,400 square feet.

 

00;07;36;27 - 00;07;38;13

DP

So, there's an FAR there?

 

00;07;38;15 - 00;08;06;10

SL

Yes. Yes. Everything we do is full force zoning and rules and that kind of I've learned them really well as much as can be played with, we have learned it all. But the house had character. But the house was dim, like typically Tudor style houses from outside are just stunningly gorgeous piece of structure. And when you go in, it’s just sad, dark.

 

00;08;06;15 - 00;08;11;23

DP

I love the way you describe that. It's so true. So many Tudors really feel that way. Absolutely.

 

00;08;11;29 - 00;08;47;14

SL

You know, in a way, it gives this kind of fear of people to the Tudor because they think Tudors are supposed to be dark interior and that is not going to happen with my approach to design, because I like the style of Tudor and I don't like the style of sad inside spaces. So, it's bright and happy and is open, is spacious. You know, lots of windows. And in this particular case, the expansion of the house was extensive because I needed to keep a chimney.

 

00;08;47;21 - 00;08;50;00

DP

Was this a functional chimney or boiler flues?

 

00;08;50;02 - 00;09;09;17

SL

Yes, functional chimney. And then we wanted to keep a fireplace. We wanted to keep a chimney and they wanted to keep the ceiling - plasterwork ceiling of a dining room - so I said, okay, if we keep all those three, but we get rid of everything else and that's what we-

 

00;09;09;18 - 00;09;12;10

DP

Wow, Right. I'm sure the contractor loved that.

 

00;09;12;14 - 00;10;27;23

SL

I work with a contractor. I absolutely love him. I'll get to the stories of my contractors because we are very involved in the construction process. So, my knowledge of construction is very high. And the contractor on this job was incredibly knowledgeable man who loved to do stuff like that but didn't care much to deal with clients and with everything else, paperwork,

So, it worked perfect. The idea become into doing a L-shape design, and because it was kind of long L-shape, it gives me the opportunity to create the design as there are certain components of structures together, section by section with the playfulness of a roof, which is important for Tudor style and also different height and also introduction of stucco and introduction of wood paneling, framing stucco and brick, and also playfulness of a brick. I think we were good in accomplishing that because it has its playfulness, and although it is relatively large, but it is not overwhelmingly massive.

 

00;10;27;29 - 00;10;29;18

DP

Yeah, I'd say it's well scaled.

 

00;10;29;21 - 00;11;23;02

SL

It is small scale, right? And then at the end we realized that there's no way we could match the old brick. So, I know Glen-Gery very well, because if I ever have done any brickwork, has been Glen-Gery. And why? Because the quality of the material, and I get service. So, I am fussy enough to worry about the size and also worry about the color of the grout. And I want to have two samples of it made before I even decide what color bricks. So, a rep does that service for us. And due to color, we provide the color to what brick and between those is what I chose. And eventually – and I have awesome mason that are Italian and five brothers and they’re one better than the other. They're local. And they do a magnificent job. And also they built a good size.

 

00;11;23;05 - 00;11;25;18

DP

They did a mockup for you.

 

00;11;25;20 - 00;12;06;23

SL

Mockup. Absolutely. And one other thing that I was almost kind of experimenting on this project was that I love the style of Tudor on the outside. I don't like the inside. So that was one issue. Second issue, I like the playfulness of how we could create interesting textures and playfulness of the laying of the brick, but Tudor would allow me to do that because we are compartmentalizing pieces, here and there. Other styles don't do that. And then that herringbone style has to be compartmentalized. Right?

 

00;12;06;26 - 00;12;08;23

DP

Yeah. And between the boards, I think at one.

 

00;12;08;23 - 00;12;55;10

SL

And between the board would work. We shouldn't do too much of it because too much of accessory, not good. So it allowed me to experiment and do detailed work and also choosing of the color of the brick and the color of the stucco and the freedom I had in detailing and designing and working also with the roof and with the roofer - I’m friend with the roofer, I'm friend with the Mason man, I’m friend - and to make sure that we get eventually a beautifully detailed house on the outside. And then when it come to the inside, our life is modern. We are living in this time. Our space should be representing our era.

 

00;12;55;17 - 00;12;57;29

DP

Did you guys use any brick on the interior?

 

00;12;58;06 - 00;13;00;14

SL

Not on this project.

 

00;13;00;16 - 00;13;08;06

DP

What were some of the historical precedents we were talking about? Details. Were there any local buildings that were Tudors? Was this the only Tudor locally?

 

00;13;08;06 - 00;13;27;22

SL

Yes. Actually, no. No, it's not. In this particular street, there are many other brick buildings. Typically, I would drive out on and look at the center and say, ‘Oh, this is so gorgeous.’ And, you know, it's one more beautiful than the other one. But I think mine, right now, it's really complete, in good level.

 

00;13;27;26 - 00;13;42;27

DP

I love – I love it. It's so great. Were there any significant setback issues? So, we were talking about the size of the existing houses almost three times smaller. Were there a significant number of zoning issues other than FAR, setback things?

 

00;13;42;29 - 00;13;51;21

SL

Yes. The chimney that I wanted to keep, which was right above the fireplace, was outside of skyline exposure.

 

00;13;51;22 - 00;13;54;09

DP

Okay. There was a height restriction.

 

00;13;54;11 - 00;15;41;16

SL

Yes, we always have height restriction. In this case, I said this an existing building. This is not a new house. This is a renovation of an existing house. So, I'm allowed to keep the chimney. And that chimney the end up to really change the inside of the chimney and outside of the chimney and all the bricks and everything.

But we kept the height – now, the zoning, building department going to hear that – fortunately, we had no issue of the setback because we had plenty of space from the front of the house in Kings Point, the setback requirement for front yard is 60 feet and we had way more than 60 feet. It was deep enough that I was able to create a parking courtyard in front of the house and the garage. We have one two car garage on the upper level and then three car garage in the lowest level. The garage is actually coming further out from the front of the house, but I don't think we had any other zoning issues.

But one other feature of the house that I thought it’s kind of important, as I was driving around and see all these Tudor houses, Tudor is not a box. Tudor is never a box. Tudor span, and that is one beautiful feature of when these all expand. We had a lot of width. Plenty of available width. The size of the property was very large, and we had enough room on the site and I thought that if I could add an extra width to the house we’ll be introducing a brick wall extending from the garage and that will be the access from the front of the house to the garden.

 

00;15;41;18 - 00;15;45;06

DP

And then you did a series of small windows along the garage, correct?

 

00;15;45;10 - 00;16;03;14

SL

Yes, because a simple wall without any detail in the front elevation was not a good idea. If I can introduce fenestration into the wall and breaking it because this is, again, the style of Tudor.

 

00;16;03;16 - 00;16;08;21

DP

Did you guys get to do any new details on this project that you hadn't done in the past?

 

00;16;08;23 - 00;16;23;28

SL

Yes. That brick herringbone is new. The playfulness of the brick above the entrance hall in the front and back. Front and back are identical in what they represent, and we don't repeat ourself. Literally, none of our projects are the same.

 

00;16;24;00 - 00;16;29;11

DP

I love the red copper finials on the gable ends. Does that double as lightning protection?

 

00;16;29;17 - 00;17;19;16

SL

Yes. And our roofer is just a master roofer. Unfortunately, he retired after pandemic. We loved him. Just spend a lot of time together coming up with ideas. And he performed beautifully.

And the door - there's also some - another feature we kept many of the existing trees. Trees are valuable. Don't like to cut trees. Doesn't matter if the tree is close to the house or tree is in front of the house. What’s wrong? Tree wants to be where tree wants to be. So, it was a tree that was really beautiful and wouldn't end up to be right in front of that passage to the garden. I couldn't cut the tree, said ‘let it be.’ And actually, in some of the pictures, you could see that the tree is right in front of the passage.

 

00;17;19;18 - 00;17;28;18

DP

So, this is a traditional home, but this question is kind of top of mind for most people today. Does sustainability come up with your clients at all, and materiality that you guys are using?

 

00;17;28;18 - 00;18;51;12

SL

Not with the client, but with my – with me, my office. We always do that. I've learned that maybe I've been kind of lucky here and there, having people who really care about sustainability. Sadly enough, majority don't, or they do not necessarily connect building material to sustainability. So, my office does for years. We do it without naming it because then they're concerned about the cost.

There are many different areas that we could really think about building the quality of heating and cooling system, the energy conservation insulation system. Those I do with that saying. My clients often who would not be bothered with that. Selection of the windows, undoubtedly. Using windows with the UL rated that transform the least amount of light, not brightness, but UV into the house we do. When it comes to insulation system, all spray foam. This goes without saying in every project we do. Selection of the material, natural, as much as we can. Selection of materials that are not biodegradable. I fight for that, to not do it.

 

00;18;51;15 - 00;18;53;27

DP

Did your clients want to use brick from the very beginning?

 

00;18;53;27 - 00;19;14;28

SL

Yeah, because their house was already brick. So, I thought that they liked the house, they loved the ceiling of the dining room. So fine, that was. And then I said, what else do you like? “We like the fireplace.” Okay, I like the chimney, but they like the fireplace. Fine. What else? “Brick.” And I said, okay, because Tudor style is brick.

 

00;19;15;04 - 00;19;23;24

DP

Well, I'm thinking it's solved so many design challenges for you guys. I mean, you got to be really playful with brick, but it also solved a lot of problems.

 

00;19;23;26 - 00;19;39;20

SL

Well, with brick, needless to say, is an amazing material. And it has been used for centuries and centuries and centuries, and still doing well. So, I don't quarrel when it comes to selection of brick.

 

00;19;39;23 - 00;19;44;00

DP

Did your team learn anything interesting through the process of building this building?

 

00;19;44;07 - 00;19;46;08

SL

We do on every building, actually.

 

00;19;46;10 - 00;19;53;22

DP

Isn't that interesting? It doesn’t matter how long you've been practicing, every one of us seems to learn something new every - every job. More than one thing.

 

00;19;53;28 - 00;19;57;26

SL

Undoubtedly. Information constantly changing.

 

00;19;57;27 - 00;20;00;09

DP

Yeah, that's a good point. It really does. Yeah.

 

00;20;00;11 - 00;20;30;09

SL

And what is available in the market constantly change. I think we become obsolete if we do not pay attention to what's happened. If we become comfortable in doing the same thing on and on, then our curiosity also lacks. And then we become so proud in what we do because we are successful and we are, you know, making money and we made it and we repeat the same thing. That is kind of the end of creativity.

 

00;20;30;11 - 00;20;35;18

DP

Off subject, have you thought at all about A.I. and what it means for our profession?

 

00;20;35;20 - 00;20;59;05

SL

Yes. I kind of love the idea. Yes. And I know that so much of worries there is there of AI to replace human beings. At the end, we are using the AI either to our benefit or not, but I think the benefits that AI could do are so amazingly high.

 

00;20;59;07 - 00;21;00;18

DP

So, using it as a tool.

 

00;21;00;22 - 00;21;01;27

SL

Like everything else.

 

00;21;02;04 - 00;21;20;23

DP

Well, I just wonder at what point, how much control are we going to have over how we're using AI, how our clients who aren't coming to architects are using AI, whether or not architects will ultimately use it as part of their services? It's a huge can of worms, but it's definitely something I've been thinking about.

 

00;21;21;00 - 00;21;24;01

SL

Let me tell you something. When I was graduating from UPenn-

 

00;21;24;02 - 00;21;25;11

DP

I went to Penn, by the way, too.

 

00;21;25;12 - 00;21;26;15

SL

Did you?

 

00;21;26;19 - 00;21;27;21

DP

I did. For graduate school, yeah.

 

00;21;27;26 - 00;22;02;19

SL

Okay. So same with me, graduate school. When I was graduating, they had a lecture, a farewell lecture. And the lecture was kind of gloomy because now you're done, graduated. We're sending you off to practice architecture, but we want to let you know the number of percentage of American buildings being designed by architects – I don’t remember exact number, but it was between nine and 11 – and then they said, compared to European – that I remember very well – 45%.

 

00;22;02;19 - 00;22;03;14

DP

Wow.

 

00;22;03;16 - 00;23;39;10

SL

So, I left school knowing that. Then I was thinking that that is not the problem necessarily with architect, but the problem of American not know what we do and the importance of our presence for every project. And that is again and again and again, we need to somehow change that level of knowledge of public work, which I think AIA is trying to do the best of their ability to inform public as the importance of architect, because we are not a set of drawings.

If anybody thinks that our work is a blueprint, then they have no clue of the importance of architect in any project. And we should also never try to compare ourself or believe that builders have taken our spot because typically, especially for residential architecture, people go to a contractor sometime before coming to the architect, and that is because contractor has been available and present for years and architects have not been available and present.

And the majority of quality architects, they don't want to even go to residential architecture because to them is just not good enough. And they have left this vast possibilities. We have – our builders build these buildings, by not the fault of themselves, because they don't know better of whatever is left of the world of residential architecture in America is sad.

 

00;23;39;12 - 00;24;14;07

DP

Wow. What I like about your position is that it's very positive, right? You could sit there and say, you know what, we're done designing, AI is going to be able to do it. It's going to have access to every design in the world and it's going to take over the world. And I love your explanation of being in school and hearing that architects – and I think I heard the same thing, that they were only responsible for a very small percentage of what was actually being done out there – and the reality is you still have a job and I still have a job, and although our jobs may change, I think we're going to be busy for a long time.

 

00;24;14;08 - 00;24;59;13

SL

We're going to be fine. We're going to be fine. And I think is gradually shifting. If people are shifting toward being concerned about their well-being, if shifting about being concerned about their health, their eating habit, small percentage, but we are small percentage when it comes to using our services. So, I think architecture and our part of the work, which is the importance of aesthetic, this is something I cannot put more emphasis on than anything else. Even if you don't need my knowledge, fine. But then the contractor’s knowledge – yes, he has knowledge of construction and maybe knowledge of material, but doesn't have knowledge of-

 

00;24;59;13 - 00;25;00;23

DP

Doesn't have the aesthetic training.

 

00;25;00;26 - 00;25;01;22

SL

No.

 

00;25;01;24 - 00;25;04;10

DP

Well, Sussan, it's been really nice to meet you.

 

00;25;04;15 - 00;25;05;28

SL

Thank you so much.

 

00;25;06;00 - 00;25;09;21

DP

So where do people go to find out more about Sussan Lari Architect, PC.

 

00;25;09;21 - 00;25;14;24

SL

I have a website, sussanlariarchitect and Instagram.

 

00;25;15;00 - 00;25;18;04

DP

Very good. Well, thank you very much for being here. It was really nice to meet you.

 

00;25;18;05 - 00;25;19;13

SL

Thank you very much for inviting me.

 

00;25;19;15 - 00;25;20;28

DP

I love your house. It's beautiful.

 

00;25;21;03 - 00;25;24;10

SL

Thank you.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;16

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;19 - 00;00;34;08

Todd Poisson (TP)

They wanted to expand the building, and a vertical expansion is taboo for individual landmarks. So, in order to get them any significant square footage additions up there, we wanted to go bold. Why not propose a more robust, bold roof scape? And given the history of Chief Tamanend being the namesake of Tammany and with this desire to really honor the Lenape, why not be inspired by the Lenape's origin story of a rising turtle coming out of the water, shedding water?

 

00;00;34;11 - 00;03;33;28

DP

This is my guest, Todd Poisson. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we’ll highlight Todd's project, 44 Union Square.

44 Union Square sits at the northeast corner of Union Square Park in Manhattan. The project includes a remarkable contemporary steel and glass dome addition to the storied landmark building on Union Square's northeast corner for Redding International Ink.

The new building expands the usable square footage of the historic building and adds an iconic anchor to Union Square. The building's former life was as the last headquarters for the political machine, Tammany Hall, an American organization founded in 1786, famous for controlling New York City and state politics for a time.

The restoration and expansion of the building includes preserving two facades, new bronze storefronts in the likeness of the original 1928 design and a three-story rooftop addition. This wild steel and glass building cap is composed of a self-supporting free form shell grid dome atop a reconstructed hipped roof with gray terracotta sunshades.

If you're wondering, the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission unanimously approved this incredibly creative design.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

Today we're talking to Todd Poisson. Todd received his Bachelor of Architecture degree from Cornell University. He became a partner at BKSK in 2007 and has over 30 years of experience in the architecture profession. Todd has been responsible for the design and construction of some of the firm's most ambitious projects, ranging between residential mixed use and institutional works. Recent award-winning projects include the Gansevoort Row redevelopment for Aurora Capital and 44 Union Square, which we'll discuss today.

Other notable recent projects of Todd's are 200 East 21st Street, a 20 story, highly sustainable residential tower in Gramercy for Alpha Development and 470 Columbus, a passive house, multifamily development on the Upper West Side for the Rowe Corporation. Todd is currently a volunteer with the American Youth Soccer Organization and a long-term coach of regional athletic leagues.

In addition, Todd is a lecturer and volunteer interviewer for Cornell University's College of Architecture, Art, and Planning. So welcome, Todd. Nice to have you with us today.

We're going to talk about 44 Union Square. But before we do, I should mention that we recently interviewed one of Todd's peers at BKSK, David Kubik. He told us a bit about the firm. But for those who haven't listened to that episode, tell us a little bit about BKSK in New York City. Where are you guys located? What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;34;01 - 00;04;31;07

TP

Sure. So, thank you for having me. BKSK Architects is headquartered in New York City in Manhattan, not too far away from your center here on West 38th Street in the garment center of Manhattan. We've been in business since 1985 celebrating 38 years. David and I are kind of second-generation partners. We've been in business about 38 years. We have over 200 built projects. David and I both joined the firm about 20 years ago plus and were made partners about the same time.

BKSK specializes in many things. We like to say if you know New York, you know our work. Our work is kind of separated between, generally speaking, cultural, institutional work, libraries, religious structures, parks, and commercial buildings and residential buildings. Residential projects ranging from new condominium buildings, towers or private residential projects, combining units or renovating someone's home.

 

00;04;31;10 - 00;04;34;01

DP

Do you guys do residential projects outside of New York City?

 

00;04;34;07 - 00;04;45;21

TP

We do. In fact, we have a little annex office out in Oklahoma City that we had so much Midwest work. Now we have private residential projects, upstate New York and in Connecticut and in New Jersey.

 

00;04;45;23 - 00;04;53;11

DP

So, tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you end up at BKSK? How long have you been there – I believe you just said that. What's your role in the office?

 

00;04;53;13 - 00;05;49;13

TP

Well, I joined back in 1998. So, 25 years ago I answered a New York Times wanted ad – remember those, actually where you had to get the newspaper Saturday, the Sunday paper? You got to subscribe to get them a day early to rifle through the want ads. And I answered a want ad for a project manager at an architecture firm called Burns, Kendall, Schieferdecker, with this crazy name. I thought it was a law firm. Back then there was no websites. You couldn't look up the firms. You had to go to these places, and you'd open the front door and you'd be disappointed but had to sit through the interviews to see what kind of work they did.

But the moment I met George Schieferdecker – he interviewed me 25 years ago, he's still there, one of the founding partners – knew immediately that I had found the mothership. You know, these guys knew each other from school way back. They were so intellectual. They all had lives outside the office. This was not a sweatshop kind of architecture firm that one sometimes encounters. And I've just had just a great time with them.

 

00;05;49;16 - 00;06;05;23

DP

It's funny, when you were saying that, all these awful memories started flooding in of making one phone call after another and going through the phone book and then showing up and knowing nothing about the work of that architect, and endless interviews. So where were you working before BKSK?

 

00;06;05;25 - 00;06;23;21

TP

I was here in Manhattan already. I was working for Stephen Jacobs Group, an architect who specialized, at the time, in new construction residential work. So, I really cut my teeth as a young architect in the field, hardcore development construction experience in Manhattan, which has paid off a great deal.

 

00;06;23;24 - 00;06;28;20

DP

So now you're partners. So, what's your role like now? Has it changed significantly?

 

00;06;28;22 - 00;07;48;02

TP

Sure. So over time, our roles change as partners as we grow in the firm. David and I and Julie Nelson, the other second-generation partner. Julie, David, and I really grew up there and our roles have evolved from being in the trenches and drawing every line and every detail for projects that get built. Lucky for us, our sites tend to be in Manhattan.

We're also a little bit regional. We have some work in New Jersey and Philadelphia and Connecticut, but still about 80% in Manhattan. So, we are very lucky. We could visit sites very easily to get hands on experience. And so, our roles really evolved quickly into project management, into client facing roles, consultant coordination, field work. When we were promoted to partners, our roles shift gradually into more finding work, finding new work, finding repeat clients, developing those relationships to continue getting new projects, setting the design direction for new projects, and then just kind of being the face of the project.

We pride ourselves to being involved with every phase of design as partners. We don't just disappear after landing a new project. We really stay involved in the trenches at meetings. I just came from a mechanical coordination meeting for a new hotel project we're doing. I really love that stuff. I really love the details – love the field work as well as the design and the client facing opportunities.

 

00;07;48;04 - 00;07;51;00

DP

I'm curious how big was BKSK when you joined them?

 

00;07;51;07 - 00;07;54;08

TP

So, they were about 15 people, I think, in 1998.

 

00;07;54;12 - 00;07;55;15

DP

And now you're 50.

 

00;07;55;15 - 00;07;57;19

TP

We're about 50, 52 people. Yes.

 

00;07;57;26 - 00;08;03;24

DP

Interesting. I love the field stuff, too. I love the people stuff. It's just the best part of the job.

 

00;08;03;26 - 00;08;21;19

TP

The soap opera arcs during it, like a seven, eight year project are just terrific. We refer to them at project meetings or say previously on this project in season two, you might recall that the elevator consultant said the opposite of what you just said. Like years later, it's a way to keep things light at these construction meetings.

 

00;08;21;23 - 00;08;22;20

DP

That is really funny.

 

00;08;23;04 - 00;08;43;02

TP

We try to keep it light and funny, and the construction industry has changed a great deal, as you could imagine, along with everything else. But in the last 35 years since I've been working, you know, sites are tech savvy. It seems to be it's a much more civilized kind of operation, and there's opportunities to really develop great relationships with the builders and consultants.

 

00;08;43;09 - 00;08;50;28

DP

Great insight. Totally true. So, let's dig in here and talk about the building. Tell us about 44 Union Square. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;08;51;00 - 00;17;44;06

TP

So back in 2012, the phone rang. It was Michael Buckley calling from Edifice Real Estate Partners. He invited us – because of our strength of our record of getting very challenging approvals through the Landmark Commission of New York City – invited us to join, I think it was a group of five firms that competed in a competition that lasted a month of design work, and then we each presented our work to the owner, Margaret Cotter of Redding International that month.

The design happened to coincide with when Hurricane Sandy hit Manhattan. So, our office, like many offices in Lower Manhattan, lost power. So, I brought the competition work home with me, and at the time I had a five-year-old daughter, and she sat in my lap, and we drew together. It really resonates with me to this day because fast forward ten years and there we were finishing the project during a global pandemic where we all had to work from home again. So, this project really bookended two kind of catastrophes in New York City, starting with Hurricane Sandy, working from home and then ending with the pandemic and closing out the project in 2020, using my daughter's big scooter to scoot down to Union Square. During the height of the pandemic, as work was finishing up.

So anyway, Michael invited BKSK to join this limited design competition. I dived into the history of the building. We're all students of history. We feel that every project, even if it's not a landmark project, has its history, has context to learn from. And immediately I learned the story of Tammany Hall that was different from what we're all taught in school, at least in the Northeast. We're taught that Tammany Hall is synonymous with greed and corruption and graft. And while that's all true, Tammany Hall is not named after an Irish politician of the 19th century, which you might think given the Boss Tweed stories and the background of Tammany Hall, that's in the social conscious. But in fact, the namesake of Tammany Hall is an indigenous 17th century chief, Chief Tamanend of the Lenape, who signed a peaceful coexistence treaty with William Penn in 1680, an event that's documented in our Capitol's rotunda in Washington, DC, rules that really held in place for quite some time.

Chief Tamanend was revered and legendary to the European settlers as a native representative who welcomed visitors and who wanted to listen to all voices. And listening to all voices became kind of the theme of these early social clubs, which became known as Tammany Societies. We were surprised to learn that there were dozens of these Tammany societies that dotted the East Coast from New York to Cleveland in the early days of the Republic, and I think they even predated the revolution. I think they, maybe, formalized themselves after the revolution, but the clubhouses began even before the American Revolution, where people joined and sat around talking about what ideals the New Republic should represent. And they chose Chief Tamanend to represent them as a symbol of listening to all voices. Over the centuries that story was lost. The only Tammany society to make it into the 20th century was ours here in New York, only to become known for craft, greed and corruption.

So right from the beginning we thought it was an opportunity to rebrand the building in Chief Tamanend’s name – kind of erase this idea that Tammany is associated with just greed and corruption, but is associated with the indigenous population of North America, of the Northeast, especially of the Lenape. Given that background, looking at this Neo-Georgian red brick and limestone building at the corner Union Square, which was designed originally to emulate Federal Hall downtown. Federal Hall is where George Washington was inaugurated on the balcony. Federal Hall was demolished in 1812, but it looked like Tammany Hall does today, except Federal Hall had a much more robust roof line, had a big hipped roof and a cupola, whereas Tammany Hall and Union Square chose the architects Thompson, Holmes, and Converse out of Philadelphia in 1928 – chose to replicate the federal Hall facade quite literally, but they gave Tammany Hall here in Union Square a much more tepid roof.

And so, the thought was, given the brief from Edifice for Redding International, they wanted to expand the building, they wanted to rebrand the building, but they knew it was a landmark. They knew it was an individual New York City landmark. So, demolition was out of the question. And a vertical expansion is taboo for individual landmarks. Typically, the New York City Landmarks Commission approves maybe a handful each year, but they're very difficult to convince the commission that it's an appropriate addition to the base landmark. Union Square is such a vast public space that we knew immediately that even if you put like a shampoo bottle on top of the roof, it would be seen from across the square. So, in order to get them any significant square footage addition up there, we wanted to go bold. We felt that, given this Neo-Georgian base that used to have or was modeled after a building that had a bigger roof, why not propose a more robust, bold roof scape?

So, the question is what form should that take? And given the history of Chief Tamanend being the namesake of Tammany, and with this desire to really honor the Lenape, why not be inspired by the Lenape’s origin story of a giant turtle rising from the sea, creating land to give this Neo-Georgian building the dome that it would have, could have, should have had if Tammany Hall perhaps was more honest with its intentions in 1928, when Thompson, Holmes, and Converse designed this building, which really cloaked them in kind of quasi-governmental garb at this very federal style red brick and limestone building with a pediment, portico, but a tepid roof.

So, we decided to model a very contemporary glass and steel dome modeled after a rising turtle coming out of the water, shedding water as the kind of volume to hold, to house three additional floors. And the landmarks, as you mentioned, Landmarks Commission unanimously approved it. We only had to go back once to tweak the height of the dome and some of the details.

The dome kind of erupts from a reconstructed hip roof. So, we removed the slate hip roof and recreated it in the same inclined plane with terracotta sunshades that intermittently cover the beginning of the glass and steel dome. So, the glass and steel dome starts off as in the form of a hip roof, but then quickly transforms into this parametric shell that looks like classically proportioned when one stands in front of it in Union Square. Looks like any other dome on a classic building, in terms of its proportion. But when one turns the corner and looks more obliquely on it, its organic source kind of becomes more apparent. You kind of sense something is going on there and it's turtle like as it faces north over this arched pediment that was top of the Tammany Hall's balustrade in the middle of the East 17th Street North facade.

 

The original building had this odd arch pediment that was kind of just vertically cantilever in there. We didn't quite realize what it was until we looked more into the history of Tammany Hall. And sure enough, they used to – before this building was built in 1928 – they occupied a clubhouse on East 14th Street down at the other corner of Union Square. And on top of that building is a giant arched, decorative element with, in fact, a 15-foot-tall statue of Chief Tamanend. That building was demolished for ConEd’s expansion in the 1920s, and that's what spurred Tammany Hall to move to this location on the northeast corner of Union Square. Chief Tamanend is only recalled on our facade in 1928 with a headshot, a limestone medallion that faces, on the north facade, over what was Tammany Hall's front door. So, the classical portico facade that faces Union Square was really always a commercial facade. The ground floor was always a retail store location. In 1928 was a manufacturer's trust bank, for example. And now just last week, we celebrated the grand opening of Petco as the new national headquarters giant, 30,000 square foot new store in the ground floor cellar and second floor of the building.

So, it's still a retail presence. And then the upper floors are remodeled to be open office space. So Tammany Hall's front door used to be below that arched pediment facing northeast 17th Street and that's where we decided to kind of turn the turtle's head on the roof. So, the glass dome takes on a little bit more of a turtle-like form as it turns its head to give that arched pediment a little bit of a home. And we think it gives it a little bit more of a reason to exist than it ever did before. And it signals that that was Tammany's front door, once upon a time.

 

00;17;44;08 - 00;18;00;17

DP

Wow. Some great information. There's so much to talk about here, you know, it reminds me of - I'm still a big fan of Coop Himmelblau, it's far more organized, right – but it reminds me of that kind of approach to architecture. So, there were five entries. Did you see the entries?

 

00;18;00;23 - 00;18;39;25

TP

We never saw the other entries. We presented our work to Margaret at Redding, like December of 2012, after a bit of a delay because of Hurricane Sandy. We were awarded the project. It took about a year for contracts and everything to be negotiated to become their architect, but we were awarded the project so roughly late 2013. We brought it to the Landmarks Commission in, I believe in 2014. We received final building department and Landmarks approval in the following year or so, and then it took a few years to build. It was interrupted a bit by the pandemic, but we finished. Construction was finished in 2020.

 

00;18;39;28 - 00;18;42;16

DP

So, start to finish, how long was it then?

 

00;18;42;19 - 00;18;54;08

TP

From the day the phone rang in 2012 to 2020. So about eight years. We've stayed on call as the landlord's architect to help coordinate work for the tenants looking at space inside.

 

00;18;54;13 - 00;18;58;17

DP

And this was mostly a renovation project, but there was some new construction?

 

00;18;58;24 - 00;20;29;26

TP

So that's great that you ask that because it appears from a lot of photographs and even as you walk around it and even when you're in it, it's hard to realize that it's actually a new building behind the 100-year-old street walls. Everything was removed except the two street-facing walls. So, we think that's a real success, that people think it is a rooftop addition with maybe a little renovation inside, because that really was the intent to be as deferential and respectful of the historic landmark as possible. But, in fact, everything was removed. The historic masonry walls were decoupled from the structure. They were braced in place by tower braces that had their own foundation systems through the sidewalk, including through a giant vault that lines the 17th Street side that has a giant ConEd steam pipe running through it. So very complex coordination that the structural engineers at Thornton Tomasetti coordinated with our construction managers at CNY to develop this very intricate tower bracing system.

I should mention Buro Happold also as engineers of the project. So, the facades were decoupled from the structure. Everything was removed inside, including the foundation. A deeper foundation was dug to give the building a very deep cellar and six new stories. So, what was a three-story building with the little caretaker's apartment hidden behind the hipped roof at the front is now a 70,000 square foot class-A commercial building, growing from about 35,000 to begin with.

 

00;20;29;29 - 00;20;32;23

DP

So, you had to match the existing brick.

 

00;20;32;26 - 00;24;16;27

TP

So yes, finally we could talk about brick. Big part of the project was restoring those two street walls, the two 100-year-old historic street walls that are red brick and limestone, modeled after Federal Hall downtown. We researched the brick. Our design partners at Buro Happold gave us a roadmap – and the restoration contractors at Pullman – very detailed road map of the two street facades of which parts needed to be replaced. But remarkably, not a lot of the brick had to be removed. We did repoint 100% of the brick, meaning partially removing, breaking back the mortar joints and replacing the mortar. The front about three-quarters-inch of mortar on all the joints, but only replaced maybe about 15, 10%, maybe less of the brick.

The brick we found; we researched where the brick was in 1928. It was from the old Virginia brick company in Salem, Virginia. And we found an advertisement in 1929 after the building was completed, and they are bragging about their new building on Union Square, and they are linking it – as a Virginia company, they’re proud of this project for many reasons – but including the fact that Tammany Hall was linked to Thomas Jefferson's ideals and Thomas Jefferson, of course, is from Virginia and is famous for designing his home at Monticello. So, the old Virginia brick company has this advertisement that we found in the Archives of Public Library here in New York that they link the brick here at Tammany Hall to the brick used at Monticello. But if you read the fine print, it's not literally the same brick, it's not from the same kilns. They say it's, quote, “in the same size and made in the same kind of cherry and maple molds as those of Jefferson's beloved Monticello.” So even though Salem, Virginia, which is right next to Roanoke, Virginia, still is about, these days, even a two hour drive from Monticello, they wanted to connect themselves to the legacy of Thomas Jefferson with this new building for Tammany Hall, which was pretending to be or, you know, acting as a quasi-governmental building.

They were really a social agency too. We shouldn't forget that even though that they were known for terrible greed and corruption and fixed elections and did all kinds of bad stuff, they really operated as a social service organization for newly arrived immigrants here in New York City. So, they, however, used Lenape iconography in ways that weren't so appealing to us, from our point of view, looking back. They didn't care for the land of a people. They use their imagery. They used Chief Tamanend's name, but they didn't necessarily care for the Lenape people. And we wanted to reintroduce the Lenape authentic voice into this project. So early on, right after we won the competition, we reached out to the Lenape center here in Manhattan. We wanted to make sure that we weren't offending people by the use of Chief Tamanend’s clan's symbol of the rising turtle. We met with Joe Baker and Hadrien Coumans, some of the co-founders of the Lenape Center here in Manhattan, and they were thrilled. I was so relieved with their reaction when we showed them this design, a good ten years ago now. And they've been friends ever since. They've been great proponents of the project. They supported it through the regulatory process, writing letters to the Landmarks Commission, appearing with us side by side. So, they've been a great partner with this, and we've shared the design as it developed with them. So, we like to think of them as one of our collaborators in this project. It wasn't part of the brief, it wasn't part of the commercial real estate project, but we kind of thought it was very important to bring an authentic voice to this project from the Lenape point of view.

 

00;24;16;29 - 00;24;28;08

DP

So, we know that you guys had to match the existing brick out there. Was it challenging to find a brick that you could use, and what was that process? What did you ultimately go with?

 

00;24;28;10 - 00;25;50;02

TP

So, looking at the existing conditions of the brick walls, they were in remarkably good shape, considering it was 100-year-old building. We removed maybe five, ten percent of them. We used our construction manager partners at CNY, hired Pullman, incredibly talented folk at Pullman to restore the brick. They used, I think it was like a four-inch diameter grinder blade to remove the first, say, three quarters of an inch of mortar out of all the joints. 100% of the joints were repointed with mortar that we selected to match the original mortar.

The bricks themselves are an incredible mixture of Glen-Gery molded brick, and Heathcote, and spec sand DD-58, and Catawba, and a Roanoke Original. So that is all mixed in to create the dappled, dark red, velvety, rich red brick that are dappled with a very dark rowlock. Some of the rowlocks are very dark, so there's many bricks that are mixed into this, specifically chosen for each moment, each part of the facade that was being replaced. It's only about ten or twelve bricks at a time, in little clumps, that had to be replaced where there was a crack that was going through them. So that's how we restored the Flemish bond of the building. That bond of the landmark has a beautiful Flemish bond pattern to it that we restored.

 

00;25;50;05 - 00;26;02;13

DP

So, let's go back to the roof for a little bit. Was there any discussion internally when you were working on the design that it was just way too contemporary? This was not going to fly?

 

00;26;02;15 - 00;27;41;12

TP

Sure. So, we looked through history at examples of iconic, bold, contemporary rooftop additions onto landmark or historic structures. We looked at, specifically, for example, the Reichstag in Berlin. Lord Foster designed a striking, bold, contemporary glass dome onto the government building in Berlin. Of course, they lost their dome through war and bombing, and it was reconstructed in a contemporary fashion. But, interestingly enough the original Reichstag Dome did have glass in it. That's a fascinating case study for us.

We also looked at other freeform shell grid structures. That is the technical name for this structural system that can span over vast spaces without any vertical supports. So, the entire dome, the entire roof is not supported by any internal column or wall. It rests on new perimeter concrete walls that go all the way down to the new foundation. The loads are distributed down columns that are in between all the windows, in the historic facade, down to the new foundation in the cellar. So, we looked at Foster's courtyard cover at the British Museum, for example, that utilizes the same kind of system of freeform shell grid, which is also boldly, iconically, contemporary against a landmark base. The thought here was by restoring the base, by restoring all the brickwork and the limestone, we strengthen the landmark base in order to allow it to have a contrasting style on the roof, that the roof could be strikingly contemporary as long as we paid attention and were respectful to the restoration of the base.

 

00;27;41;14 - 00;27;55;03

DP

So, I read a little bit about the solar insulation, light infiltration. You were concerned glare clearly was going to be an issue. Could you elaborate on the probability studies you did investigating those elements and how they impacted design?

 

00;27;55;03 - 00;29;31;14

TP

Our partners at Buro Happold did fascinating studies with daylight. We directed them and wanted to make sure that we weren't going to cause reflection problems with this parabolic to other buildings. There are some case studies around the world of curved glass buildings causing problems to their neighbors, including there's one in London that focuses heat to the degree that it was causing fires on the sidewalk across the street. So, we certainly did not want to be known for that. So Buro Happold helped us study the probability of reflection on to the neighbors. We pinpointed the pieces of glass that would be the culprits – the whole selection process of the type of glass, with Buro Happold's help and all their studies – it was determined that a combination of tint and clear glass was the solution to inhibit reflection, but also to prevent too much solar heat gain and also to prevent too much internal glare.

So, from the outside, the glass appears a bit dark. On sunny days, it's reflective just enough to give it a shiny kind of silvery tone, and you can see the clouds, but it doesn't reflect rays of sunlight directly, like laser beams into the neighbors. And while you're on the inside, even though the glass on the outside has a darker appearance from the inside, your eyeballs adjust and it's all color corrected. Your eyes don't see dark. They see blue sky. They see the beautiful terracotta details of the neighboring historic buildings. It was, in the end, success of glass selection to inhibit all those potential problems.

 

00;29;31;16 - 00;29;40;17

DP

So, did your team learn anything interesting through the design and construction process doing something this unique? I would imagine you've never done a roof like this in the office before.

 

00;29;40;21 - 00;30;52;21

TP

We haven’t. It's our first freeform shell grid. It was New York's first freeform shell grid. There is a similar covering at Moynihan Train Hall to their barrel vaults, but they opened six months after we did, so we are happy to say, after an eight-year design process and construction, we kept saying we're going to be New York's first freeform shell grid. We're the first one to enclose internal space. I think there's a similar system that might be on some like entry canopies. There's one for like the seven-train extension to Hudson Yards and there's one out in Yonkers, but those do not enclose covered space and they're not nearly this large. So, we're proud to say we're New York's first freeform shell grid.

They use acres of this system in Asia and Europe. It's a very common system to span large swaths of space. It is used here in this country. For example, we visited the Smithsonian Institute down in Washington, DC. The Portrait Gallery has a courtyard cover that's similar to the British Museum cover. Foster came here and did kind of an encore for us in 2007 with the Smithsonian cover. We studied that system too, in terms of how it let light in, and in our studies of glare, etc..

 

00;30;52;24 - 00;31;05;21

DP

Yeah. What I find so interesting about the roof is that you could have simply created a typical Mansard roof and then added glass to the top. But the whole thing is glass, which is so unique.

 

00;31;05;21 - 00;31;52;26

TP

And a mansard roof, of an appropriate proportion, wouldn’t enclose nearly this much square footage. So, we wanted to get our client as much square footage as possible on top of this historic building. And it needed that extra oomph. The dome portion in the middle, which would never be able to be really enclosed by a mansard of any kind of historically accurate proportion. So that's what led us to both the form and the structure to enclose it, because the freeform shell grid is kind of the perfect device to span such great distances so the interior can be super flexible.

We built three floors within it, but those could be removed, they could be remodeled, they could be reconstructed to serve any purpose because all the loads from the roof system just go down the side perimeter walls.

 

00;31;53;02 - 00;32;18;06

DP

It's a great project for architecture students to look at in terms of learning how to develop an idea to make form, right. It's just so clear. And yet if you knew nothing about it, you just say, “Wow, they just put a glass dome on top.” But there's so much more to it that created so many unique details and so many beautiful things and facets, and I'm sure that space on the interior is wonderful.

 

00;32;18;09 - 00;32;25;04

TP

It's really terrific. There's opportunities to connect all three floors interconnecting and the possibilities are endless in there.

 

00;32;25;06 - 00;32;40;23

DP

So, you've obviously been an architect for quite some time, over 30 years. So, what career advice would you give your younger self, looking back after practicing for all this time? What have you learned? What's an idea that you've really locked on to that you'll never forget?

 

00;32;40;25 - 00;32;53;00

TP

One of the founding partners at BKSK, Joan Krevlin, said to me 25 years ago when I joined the - one of the things that she always kept with her as a young architect is do your job and tell the truth.

 

00;32;53;02 - 00;32;55;22

DP

What great advice! I love that!

 

00;32;55;29 - 00;33;42;02

TP

It's a great profession. And as you said, students of architecture have a great time in design studios. And this is a project that is really right out of studio in a way. I love showing it to students because like you said, it's super accessible in terms of the visuals, but it has a great connection to social history and the importance of context, the importance of research that you just don't come into a vacuum and design a building. You look at the context, you look at history, and you look at what you can learn from it. Because this could have been, like you said, just a flat top mansard roof. But discovering the history of the Lenape connection to this building was just remarkable and a great opportunity. I've met the Lenape Center folk. They've asked me to join their advisory steering committee. It's just been a wonderful experience.

 

00;33;42;04 - 00;34;03;22

DP

I love what you said. You don't just come into a vacuum and design a building. You don't. You don't. And that's what you learn in school. And hopefully you get to use that information, use that process, use that paradigm when you graduate, and you become a real architect. Right. So, Todd, it's been great to have you here. Thanks so much for your time. Where can people go to learn more about BKSK architects?

 

00;34;03;27 - 00;34;09;06

TP

We can be found at www.bksk.com

 

00;34;09;08 - 00;34;11;09

DP

Todd, it’s been great to have you, man. That was really cool.

 

00;34;11;25 - 00;34;16;12

TP

Thanks. This was really fun.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;19

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;21 - 00;00;28;06

Gavri Slasky (GS)

We were given the site. Needed to build as many units as we could, but to keep the center open and accessible to the public. This courtyard, this Village Green, was intended to be used by the Village for tree lighting ceremonies or other public events. The idea was to try to incorporate the public into the building as much as possible.

 

00;00;28;14 - 00;02;31;27

DP

This is my guest, Gavri Slasky. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault will highlight Gavri’s project Morgan Parc. The Morgan Parc Project is comprised of 267 residential units situated above retail space. The nine story building is composed of a central tower at the far side of the square, flanked by two symmetrical wings, the masonry facades draw upon turn of the century mill buildings whose architecture is expressed in their strong, deep structural piers and intricate brick details.

The building facade is composed of masonry piers that extend the full height of the building, opening up a ground floor to create a retail arcade that wraps a courtyard. Large industrial sized window units span between the deep piers. The building is capped by glass, enclosed rooftop amenity spaces, an outdoor pool and terracing roofs, which overlook Long Island.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

Today we're talking to Gavri Slasky, AIA, LEED AP. Gavri received his master’s in architecture from Princeton University and his B.A. from Columbia University in Architecture. Gavri started his career at Stephen B. Jacobs Group as the project manager for an 11 story 311-unit residential building in Long Island. Since then, together with Mr. Stephen Jacobs, he has designed and managed over 3 million square feet of residential new construction throughout New York and developed an expertise in building codes of the city and state.

Gavri specializes in piloting projects from conception to completion, testifying at local zoning boards, producing documentation for building department approval, overseeing construction administration and working together with the general contractor and owner in achieving building occupancy. Today, we're going to talk to Gavri about SBJ's Morgan Parc project. So welcome, Gavri.

 

00;02;32;00 - 00;02;34;00

GS

Thank you, Doug. Good to see you.

 

00;02;34;02 - 00;02;47;26

DP

And it's great to see you. It's nice to have you with us today. So, before we get started, tell us a little bit about Stephen B. Jacobs Group. Where are they located in New York? What's the size of the firm? And what type of work too they do?

 

00;02;47;28 - 00;03;38;20

GS

So, we are a mid-sized firm, about 30 architects and interior designers in Manhattan, where we're on Park Avenue South and 27th Street. So just north of the side iron building there. Our firm has been around for quite a long time. The founder of the firm, Stephen Jacobs, created the firm in 1967. So, it's been over 50 years. And the amount of work that he's done in New York is uncountable. So, over this time, you go to any street in New York and there's a building by SBJ Group.

For the most part, we specialize in multifamily housing. We've done quite a number of hotels and we've diversified recently into school buildings, commercial buildings, and we do quite a range of work.

 

00;03;38;23 - 00;03;46;15

DP

That's pretty impressive walking around New York City. Do you ever count on how many buildings they've done? Is it like a hundred? Like 200?

 

00;03;46;17 - 00;03;49;09

GS

No, there's definitely thousands, for sure.

 

00;03;49;10 - 00;03;50;04

DP

Oh, my goodness.

 

00;03;50;11 - 00;04;05;00

GS

We have this old Sanborn book, and every time that we got a project, I remember one of the former principals of the firm, Herb Weber, would just shade the lot in and so he would be able to flip through and keep track of it that way.

 

00;04;05;06 - 00;04;30;07

DP

Those Sanborn maps are pretty incredible. When I was at Penn State. My thesis was Housing for the Homeless in Times Square, if you can believe it. But I sent away for the specific Sanborn maps for that location, and I believe they were used by firemen. Yeah, they had to have been 75, 80 years old. They were updating at one point. I don't even know what they do today. Can you even get Sanborn maps?

 

00;04;30;14 - 00;04;48;05

GS

You can. Now, everything is digitally available. You have digital tax maps. They're super precise and updated. You can rewind history and go back to see what this looked like a decade ago or a hundred years ago and see how the site has evolved. Just a fun site analysis.

 

00;04;48;07 - 00;05;11;22

DP

Yeah. The maps have a footprint of the building at that particular location at the particular time, and then they have the heights of the buildings of various heights as you move around the building so you can literally build a model from them. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. So, this interview's pretty unique because you're in Israel and we oddly enough, know one another. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that?

 

00;05;11;25 - 00;05;15;22

GS

Yeah. It's great to see you. It's been almost 20 years.

 

00;05;15;23 - 00;05;17;15

DP

Oh, my goodness gracious.

 

00;05;17;17 - 00;05;35;14

GS

That's hard to say. The summer of 2004, I had just graduated Columbia. My teacher, Joeb Moore, offered me a summer internship at his firm in Greenwich. My seat was actually right next to your seat. I was wondering if you would remember me. It's been a long time.

 

00;05;35;16 - 00;05;45;20

DP

I do. I was like Gavry Slasky. Yes! I remember the name! It was a long time ago.

 

00;05;45;24 - 00;05;49;10

GS

It was. And to be fair, I was only there for a summer.

 

00;05;49;11 - 00;06;04;04

DP

So yeah. I joined Joeb in 1999, I believe, and I worked with him for about 20 years, 15 of those as a consultant. So, it was a great experience. He's an amazing architect, one of the most talented men I've ever met in my life.

 

00;06;04;07 - 00;06;09;26

GS

He's an amazing architect and such a kind person. Does such beautiful work.

 

00;06;09;28 - 00;06;21;15

DP

He does. If you're interested, Joeb Moore, joebmoore.com. Check it out. So how long have you been with Stephen B Jacobs group? Tell us more about your role in the Office.

 

00;06;21;17 - 00;06;22;13

GS

So I've been.

 

00;06;22;13 - 00;08;06;24

GS

At group for about a decade, and the first project I worked on, which he mentioned actually was in Mineola. It's not this Morgan Parc project. It was sort of the predecessor to this. We were working on a 300 plus unit apartment building, around the corner from this Morgan Parc project, called One Third Avenue, and that was my first project working with Stephen, and with this same client, Kevin Lalezarian.

That was a new experience for me. I had previously worked on single family homes. I worked for a year at KPF, so that was completely different, working on Super Towers in Asia. This was New York. This was something that was extremely practical. It's going to get built. It was going to get built, and fast. And the people in the office, they knew what they were doing. They done that type of work for a long time. So, it was quite a learning curve for me. That was a great project.

And during construction of that project, One Third Avenue, the client decided to go ahead with the second project around the corner from that. He had faith that he wouldn't be competing with himself. He'd be able to fill up all of his units.

We started designing Morgan Parc. That was such a rewarding project for me because I was on that from day zero, going with the client and Stephen to the Planning Board meetings and really seeing how a project starts from its conception, being in every single meeting, hearing how the building gets massed out, all the different considerations of it through the years of approvals and construction. And it opened about three years ago, during the pandemic, actually.

 

00;08;06;26 - 00;08;39;17

DP

So, let's talk a little bit about the building. Just as an aside, so I met Isaac Daniel Astrachan a couple of weeks back. He also works for SBJ. I was a host for a panel discussion here at the Brickworks Design Studio on 5th Avenue, and Isaac was on the panel talking about the Morgan Parc project. So, I know a little bit about it, but let's get into the details. So, you just explained how your office got the project. Your client wanted to do another building with you guys. Had SBJ worked with those clients for a number of years, even before the project you came in on?

 

00;08;39;20 - 00;09;13;28

GS

Yes. The Lalezarians are a family of real estate developers and property owners, second generation and repeat clients for us, as are many of our clients. That's what they do. They build buildings, they hold on to the buildings, they manage them, and we try to give them the best service that we can, be as efficient as possible and make the most beautiful building that we can with the budget. And they come back to us. That is basically the goal. So, most of our clients are repeat clients like that.

 

00;09;14;00 - 00;09;36;04

DP

Well, it's really impressive. It's the most important thing for an architect, right, to get word of mouth business. You're not marketing your company all the time. You've got a steady stream of people that are coming back to you after they get to work with you, you know, the first time. So that's wonderful to hear. So, tell us a little bit about the history of the location of Morgan Parc and what impact that might have had on the design.

 

00;09;36;08 - 00;10;24;05

GS

So, Morgan Parc is on a piece of property right in the center of Mineola, which is the seat of Nassau County. The property is right across the street from the train station, so it is uniquely located for a transit-oriented development. It is right in the center of their downtown.

Prior to our client owning the property, all that existed on that property was a single Citibank building and a sea of parking. Actually, during the construction of One Third Avenue that I mentioned before, our client, when he purchased the Morgan Parc property, moved the Citibank tenants into One Third Avenue building and making way for this second development.

 

00;10;24;08 - 00;10;25;12

DP

That's really interesting.

 

00;10;25;15 - 00;11;00;26

GS

It's located at the heart of their downtown right next to the train station. NYU Langone is right across the street there as well. So, it's a busy area. And on Mineola’s master plan from a few decades ago, this site was labeled as the village green. It was their sort of center, their downtown. But that was a sort of future hope that somebody would make that a reality. Village Green was actually a working name of our project until marketing came along and made it into Morgan Parc. But that was always in the forefront of the design.

 

00;11;00;28 - 00;11;05;24

DP

So, that's a good segway. So, tell us a little bit about the programmatic requirements from the client.

 

00;11;05;27 - 00;12;00;08

GS

We were given the site. Needed to build as many units as we could, but to keep the center open and accessible to the public. This courtyard, this Village Green, was intended to be used by the Village for tree lighting ceremonies or other public events. The idea was to try to incorporate the public into the building as much as possible – or when I say the building, the site. It's a large square shaped property. While it was a parking lot for Citibank, people would use it as a cut through, as a shortcut to get to the train station. And so that also became part of the program. The client wanted to maintain access, crisscrossing through the site so people can still get to the train station without having to walk all the way around the block. So, we created these openings between the different wings of the building so people can get from one side to the other.

 

00;12;00;11 - 00;12;02;21

DP

Describe the building plan to us then.

 

00;12;02;24 - 00;12;44;18

GS

It's a U-shaped building which has its tallest portion on the tracks, which is that front street. So it’s the back of the building. So that's a nine story structure at that point. It has the two wings of the “U” that gradually step down to six stories at Second Street, which is the downtown street.

The scale of the building respectfully interacts with the existing context there. The larger buildings that I mentioned at NYU and some other buildings are situated at the train tracks in that zone. And then the historic downtown is lower scale, three- or four-story buildings.

 

00;12;44;20 - 00;12;47;29

DP

So, you're a little bit of an expert on zoning codes.

 

00;12;48;01 - 00;12;50;29

GS

I've had my share of reading-

 

00;12;51;01 - 00;13;04;22

DP

Right! So, it sounds to me like a project like this, you really got pretty good at what's going on with the city – what the requirements are. So, tell us a little bit about the project restrictions for this particular job, maybe a little bit about the zoning codes.

 

00;13;04;25 - 00;13;39;19

GS

They don't quite have a zone sort of set up for this. So, what we had to do is go in and propose what it is that we wanted to build there – look around at other developments in that area and see what would be appropriate and then open that up to discussion to the public. And that project was in front of the planning board maybe four times. These meetings, which started about 7 p.m. or so, they would go till 11 p.m. they would have standing room only of people giving comments pro and against.

 

00;13;39;25 - 00;13;47;25

DP

Their local people come to the meeting, and they want to say what they think of the architecture. So, this is like an architectural review board, right?

 

00;13;47;29 - 00;15;02;11

GS

Sorta. You know, it's interesting because the comments were less about the architecture, more about planning, traffic, and heights of buildings and schoolchildren. So those were the major concerns that they had, but it was the democratic process. So, watching it play out, seeing everybody given the opportunity to have a voice, and through that process, the building changed as well. In reaction to that, the building got smaller.

And we were given the opportunity also to present the benefits of the building and what the building would be offering the city, because as we were designing this, this wasn't a building that we were designing in isolation from far away and imposing it onto the local town, but rather with the village of Mineola in mind constantly. And so, so much of the building was being built and designed not just for the residents but for the people of the town. And I used to go out there during construction every week or two and go to the coffee shop across the street and really got to see this downtown come together where there used to be, essentially, a hole in the middle of it with this enormous parking lot. The building has so many different facets to it, but the public side of it was really rewarding.

 

00;15;02;13 - 00;15;10;09

DP

Well, again, a good segway. Why don't you talk a little bit about the style choice and how it reflects or relates to the buildings that are around and in the neighborhood?

 

00;15;10;12 - 00;16;11;05

GS

So, when Stephen conceived of the design of this building, he was thinking of historic mill buildings, turn of the century factory buildings that were made of brick, that had large openings, had repeated structural piers. They were built in an efficient way, allowing for large openings to light up the factories where the work would be taking place in. And they were often clad in brick by masons who were extremely talented. And it's hard to find people of that talent today, but that was their craft.

So that was in the back of Stephen's head and a lot of the work that he did in the early period of his career in the late sixties, early seventies was adaptive reuse. He had taken these types of buildings and turned them into lofts, but at this point he was creating this new building that based off of its old historic model.

 

00;16;11;08 - 00;16;28;14

DP

So, when the clients came to you guys and you talked a little bit about aesthetics, did they give you any historical precedents or did they say, hey, this building has got to match the aesthetic of what's around it? And then maybe talk a little bit about your use of brick and why you guys chose that particular brick and that color.

 

00;16;28;17 - 00;17;47;13

GS

I had mentioned that these were repeat clients, so we knew them very well. We knew their tastes. We knew their preferences. They came to us, and they said that they wanted a timeless building, a building that wasn't a fad that would be dated in a decade or so. They wanted something timeless. They don't build buildings and then sell them. They build them, and then they keep them and maintain them as part of their portfolio. So, they were looking to create something for the long run.

So, I think at that point, Stephen started to think about these historic buildings that are so beautiful that they become historic landmarks and get adapted for one use, changing to another, use. I brought people to see this building after it was completed and they asked me, what was this building before? It's funny to think that this is a brand-new building, but I thought that that was actually quite a compliment. We are trying to emulate historic buildings. We never thought that we would be able to fool people that this was historic. That wasn't the intent, but it just fits. And when the client asked for timeless, I feel like that type of reaction from people that visit the building didn't know the site before. I feel like that accomplished the goal that the client was looking for.

 

00;17;47;20 - 00;18;28;19

DP

Yeah, Issac said the same thing when he was here that people had asked how long the building had been there, you know, after the building had been constructed. So interestingly, when you go to school, when you go to architecture school, one of the first things I learned was that the architect is striving for timelessness in their work, right?

Not all architects choose to do that, but at Penn State they talked about that a lot. I found it pretty interesting. I like to ask people that come in whether or not brick solved any design challenges or design problems for you guys. And clearly it did in this aesthetic realm. But can you think of any other way that you were able to use Masonry and it solved some design challenges?

 

00;18;28;22 - 00;19;51;00

GS

There's a lot of different facets of this building, but I think the brick is one of the key factors that brought this whole building together. It's a large building. There could have been other approaches to take using different materials to break up the mass, and you see that quite a lot around the suburbs. What Stephen wanted to do was to embrace that this was a large building and take one material, being brick, and use it as many ways as possible and unify the building, make one unified building out of it.

We worked on a few details. We worked on them and reworked them and got feedback from masons, reworked them again. We created a couple of unique shaped bricks. We were playing with all sorts of articulation, ins and outs and we ended up with a detail for the pier and detail for the cornice, a detail for a second-floor band – it was really about three or four typical details that we worked out. And then repeated it in a rhythm and executed it. And it was wonderful working with the masons on site as well, because as architects we can draw what we want, but at the end of the day it's all about the execution of the craftsperson. We were fortunate to have a great mason on the project.

 

00;19;51;07 - 00;19;55;05

DP

So, did you guys build actual physical mock ups that were out there?

 

00;19;55;07 - 00;20;18;10

GS

Yes, we did. We built a couple of mockups and made a couple of adjustments during that period. And then they started and they were able to start low down on the building, did a few portions, and then once they got those couple of details down, they're able to run with it. And it was a long process and a lot of brick, and the client had faith in it. I was very fortunate about that and it came out great.

 

00;20;18;12 - 00;20;38;12

DP

So, two quick questions about how long everything took. I'd like to think about how large is the set of drawings when you're going to build a building like Morgan Parc? Did you guys draw the thing in 2D and 3D? And how long did this whole process take? Through Planning, city review, design, and then construction.

 

00;20;38;14 - 00;21;42;03

GS

Great question. The way that we work, we work in 3D and 2D. At the same time, we usually model the building in Revit. We’ll work out the massing, the elevations, study different details in three dimensions and color, testing out different color combinations. We had gone back and forth on whether the windowsills should be metal or cast stone or brick. And we tested out these options in three dimensions and 3D models.

The working drawings at the end of the day were all done two dimension CAD, and they were, you know, as precise as we could get. It's actually interesting. The building is a U-shaped plan, but it's two Ls that are joined at the center to make this U-shaped. So, the building is actually mirrored down that center. So, we were able to draw it, one L, and mirror it. That was part of my struggle over the years, was to try to keep it as symmetrical as possible so that we can keep on using that for efficiency.

 

00;21;42;06 - 00;21;45;16

DP

That's pretty cool. So, you really only had to draw half the building, right?

 

00;21;45;19 - 00;21;47;11

GS

For the most part.

 

00;21;47;13 - 00;22;13;14

DP

I'm sure there's way more that goes into it, but when you first say that, you say, Oh wow, that's pretty cool. So, the thing is simply mirrored. I'm sure there's a lot of differentiation that goes from one L to the other, but it's pretty interesting.

So, what's, kind of, top of mind for a lot of people today is sustainability. Did you guys talk about that at all in terms of using masonry, or was that a request that the client had that you guys had to keep in mind?

 

00;22;13;19 - 00;24;17;16

GS

Sustainability is something that's viewed in every project that we do in one sense or another. Brick buildings allowed for a cavity wall and continuous insulation on the exterior of the backup wall. And so, it allows for a beautiful finish, but a very sustainable envelope. And the amount of insulation that you put in that cavity wall is really dependent on how large of a relieving angle you can get for the brick because the more insulation you have, the further the brick has to be on the backup wall. That's sort of the only limitation.

 

00;22;52;09 - 00;22;54;03

DP

And what did you guys end up doing?

 

00;22;54;04 - 00;24;17;16

GS

Yeah, it's been a couple of years. I don't remember exactly. We put as much as we could. We put insulation on the inside as well.

This is not exactly related to brick, but one of the most interesting, sustainable anecdotes from this building that I remember is in the excavation of the building. Long Island is built on sand primarily, and it's a great site for foundations to build shallow foundations. The sand takes the load, but another advantage of it was the contractor who excavated out the sand, and I don't know how many hundreds or thousands of truckloads of sand have to go out of this building – I didn't even mention that the building has three cellars for parking – so they went down 30, 40 feet into the ground for the entire site. So maybe a million and a half cubic feet.

The contractor who was excavating that, taking that sand away, sold that sand to a construction company for concrete. So concrete is a very carbon heavy building material. But what I like to think about was that the sand in the foundations in the site for this building, actually went back into the building process. I'm sure it didn't go to our building. It probably went to someone else's, but it wasn't just shipped off to someplace and dumped somewhere.

00;24;17;24 - 00;24;39;16

DP

We always have interesting experiences, right? So, was there anything as you went through this process of building Morgan Parc, designing it and ultimately going through the various stages with the town, with the city, then getting the thing built? Was her anything that you or your team learned that was really interesting for you? It was kind of a first.

 

00;24;39;19 - 00;25;48;27

GS

There's so many firsts. Every building process is a learning experience. There's this one lesson learned that was interesting. It was during the brick installation, actually. I noticed that there was this one detail at the corner of the building that wasn’t correct, and I was wondering how could they make that mistake?

It doesn't have the usual frame around it. The brick checker pattern just died into the side and I looked at our drawings and then I realized that the elevation was taken with a pier, hiding a portion of the elevation behind it. And so, it looked like that was the end of the building, but it actually continued another foot or so. And the mason was looking at the elevation and they didn't see that.

So, they just continued the same pattern until the end that maybe they thought there was a dimensional mistake or something. So, every week I would go to them and say, are you going to fix that detail? And he was like, at the end. And I was thinking to myself, oh, you better fix that at the end before Stephen comes to take a look at that. But he did. And that was an interesting lesson learned – to make sure that every elevation is drawn, nothing is being hidden by any portion of the building in and of itself.

 

00;25;49;00 - 00;26;36;13

DP

Well, I think about that a lot, I go out on to the job site and I see something and it's not exactly the way I had drawn it. And sometimes you're just not paying attention, sometimes I didn't cover it well enough in the drawings and unless you're out there on a weekly basis, these things just completely get away from you.

So, one last question before you go. This is very interesting to me. So, you're an expert on zoning and building codes. So, this is an incredibly valuable asset for any office. I would imagine at some point you could probably become an attorney with all the knowledge that you have. Was that something that you always gravitated toward that side of the business over time, or is that just you were kind of thrown into it? It was interesting to you. You were good at it, and that's how it evolved.

 

00;26;36;16 - 00;28;25;23

GS

It's funny, it's not the part of architecture that people are usually interested in, and it definitely wasn't so in the beginning for me. But the more I read through these things, the zoning – New York City, or every different town has their own zoning ordinances - there are so many nuances there, and these words that are written down there were written very carefully, and they create what you're building is going to be. And so, careful reading through these documents are critical, whether it's zoning or building code. And I came to really enjoy creating it. And it is probably the dorkiest thing, but I enjoy it and I enjoy getting emails or calls from colleagues saying, “Gavri, can you check what are we allowed to do here?” I love being able to look it up and learn. Each time I look at it, I learn more and then the codes change from 2008 to 2014, New York City now 2022, and New York State has their own codes. And then to compare in New York City versus New York State and to see what's allowed in one versus the other. They don't tell you why in these things, they just tell you what's allowed or what's not allowed.

You try to think about what is a consideration, what's the difference between New York and New York City in New York State. So, New York State has larger sites. So, their stair cores are allowed to be further away from the center. They try to direct people to have their egress stairs at the edges of the building. The dead end distances are shorter than they are in New York City. In New York City, they allow you to have scissor stairs in residential buildings because you have a small footprint and you don't really have much of a choice. These rules, they end up shaping the plan. They end up shaping every aspect of the building.

 

00;28;26;00 - 00;28;39;28

DP

Well, Gavri, I can tell you really love this stuff. And I'm sure Stephen B. Jacobs Group is very happy to have you. So, thank you very much for spending some time with us today. Where can people go to learn more about SBJ architects?

 

00;28;40;01 - 00;28;49;00

GS

Yeah, you can go to our website sbjgroup.com.

We are on 27th and Park Avenue South. Looking forward to hearing from everybody.

 

00;28;49;07 - 00;28;51;08

DP

It's a small world, man. It’s great to see you.

 

00;28;51;10 - 00;28;53;12

GS

It's great to see you, Doug. Thank you so much.

 

00;28;53;18 - 00;29;21;00

DP

Thanks, Gavri.