Design Vault Ep. 20 MarketPlace at Fells Point with John Hutch

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;08

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;10 - 00;00;22;07

John Hutch (JH)

One of the missions was to continue to keep the character of Broadway, of Fell's Point through those storefronts and set back the building's mass so that it was not present or felt when you're walking along the sidewalk.

 

00;00;22;14 - 00;02;25;12

DP

This is my guest, John Hutch. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from The Design Vault. We highlight John's Project Marketplace at Fell's Point. Marketplace Fell's Point is located in historic Fell's Point, Baltimore, Maryland. The new urban lifestyle apartments feature open rooms that maximize exterior daylight and the views. The bulk of the units in the marketplace project open onto private courtyard space, complete with firepits and water features.

 

Many of the units are rehabbed historic buildings from the late 1800s with large windows and special features. The apartment buildings have direct access to over 100 community retail and entertainment venues on Fell's Point waterfront. In addition to the private courtyards, the project also features a club room, lounge, fitness center and secure parking for the residents.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. John Hutch, one of the founding partners and a principal at JP2 Architects in Baltimore, Maryland. John has a Bachelor of Science degree in architecture from the University of Cincinnati. He plays an active role in the professional development and awareness of sustainable design within his firm. He brings 30 years of experience leading the design process of employing project management with an emphasis on project delivery.

 

He has a background in both public and private sector work, which provides diverse experience for all of the projects the office takes on. John has an international portfolio of mixed use projects which include corporate hospitality, retail, multifamily and entertainment facilities. So welcome, John. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about JP2 Architects, where you guys are located in Baltimore? What's the size of your firm? How long have you been around and what kind of work do you do?

 

00;02;25;14 - 00;03;00;16

JH

Great. Thanks, Doug. We are about a 20 person firm, and we're located in the Canton area of Baltimore, which is adjacent to Fell's Point, where this project is located. We founded JP2 Architects in 2006 and I have two other founding partners, Jamie Pett and Gordon Gaudet. The three of us have been working together for almost 30 years now.

 

When I moved here in 1995, I got to know the two of them and we've been friends and colleagues and now partners ever since.

 

00;03;00;18 - 00;03;02;12

DP

Wow, That's really cool. How did you meet?

 

00;03;02;13 - 00;03;19;23

JH

So we all met at the large international firm of our RTKL, and we were each in the commercial group. Although I tended to bounce around between groups, which gave me a diverse experience. But we were still young, rising up through the ranks and learning a lot.

 

00;03;20;00 - 00;03;23;19

DP

That's really interesting. Did you guys always know that you wanted to start a firm together?

 

00;03;23;21 - 00;03;54;10

JH

No. We each probably had different starting points. I'd say it was always my dream to start a firm and I can thank my parents for saying hold on, hold on, hold on, you need more experience. So when I moved here to Baltimore, met the two of them, I spent about ten or 12 years there prior to the three of us starting, and I couldn't ask for better partners.

 

We each fulfill a different niche and role in the firm and bring different experience and complement each other very, very well.

 

00;03;54;13 - 00;04;05;00

DP

That's wonderful for our listeners. Sean and I were talking before we got rolling here, and I used to work in Baltimore, Maryland for Zeiger Sneed. I guess I'm wondering if you ever ran into them.

 

00;04;05;06 - 00;04;11;06

JH

I haven't met them in person, but we still run into them every once in a while, competing on a project.

 

00;04;11;11 - 00;04;19;27

DP

I'm sure you do. I'm not sure how involved they both are in the firm at this point, but they certainly did something really wonderful in Baltimore.

 

00;04;19;29 - 00;04;37;14

JH

They have and they've won a lot of awards in the area. And why I plan to my roots here in Baltimore was because the design and architectural community is strong, thriving. It's a livable city. And I really love the passion that everybody brings to their projects and profession here.

 

00;04;37;17 - 00;04;45;04

DP

That's great to hear. So tell me a little bit about yourself. How long have you been practicing and what's your role in the office as a partner?

 

00;04;45;06 - 00;05;38;09

JH

Sure. So I graduated from Cincinnati in ‘91. That was probably not the best time to be graduating and looking for a job, but I struggled through those first few years gaining experience. And so when we started JP2, as I mentioned, as I think it's always been my dream to start a job. So a lot of the business planning, the oversight of the firm in general, my background is probably more design delivery heavy.

 

But I think one of the beauties of the practice we've established is that we have an amazing group here that all overlaps and has a terrific sense of projects and project management and design from beginning to end. So I will take on some master planning and some design roles, but I can tell you that my partners can draw circles around me.

 

00;05;38;11 - 00;06;22;00

DP

We talk a lot about this with our guests, our university experience. So you go to college and you learn about design, you know, structures and HVAC equipment and all those kinds of things. But you never really think about everybody's going to be good at something different, right? Or they're going to be good at a few things and then somebody else is going to be.

 

And so you really need that if you're going to have a partner, if you're not going to run your own office, you're going to have partners. It's really important to overlap. It's important to complement one another and then allow those people to do a good job in the areas that they're good at. Right? It's not something that anybody ever discusses in college. You get out and it becomes reality where you got to run a business and make money.

 

00;06;22;02 - 00;06;50;20

JH

Exactly. It's amazing how many hats and projects I may touch in a day, but having a team around us and having colleagues that I work closely with allows that overlap. What it does is it extends those initial ideas of a project and allows the whole team to be on board throughout the process so they know the vision, they know what we're executing when you go from a design concept to actually detailing a project and how to deliver it.

 

00;06;50;26 - 00;06;58;09

DP

So true. Okay, so let's dig in here and talk about Marketplace at Fell's Point. So how did you guys get that project?

 

00;06;58;11 - 00;07;58;06

JH

It's a wonderful, wonderful history. And we actually made contact through an ex RTKL employee who was in the landscape department and he got out of the design profession and started purchasing and renovating a lot of row houses here and Fell’s Point and Canton area. And he and another developer, David Holmes, the person I was speaking about is Dan Winter, and the two of them started realizing that they had properties near each other.

 

So that became a genesis amongst the two of them. They were pursuing a strategy of basically a garage with office above it, and it was seven or eight stories tall and the community fought them all along the way. And Dan, knowing that we had just started our practice and respecting our design skills, said, Hey, can you guys give me some advice?

 

Take a look at this. What should we do here? That was how we landed the project.

 

00;07;58;06 - 00;08;00;07

DP

And essentially the function changed?

 

00;08;00;09 - 00;08;51;22

JH

There you go. So I'd say I'm probably a frustrated developer because I love to look at something and say what belongs, what fits, and also how do you make it financially viable? The project, as initially conceived, wasn't penciling out from a financial standpoint, and it was a lesson of less is more. Why fight what should be here, which is a dense, residential neighborhood of two and a half, three and a half story tall row houses.

 

There are lot lines throughout, so we being old school, put pencil to trace and started sketching some ideas and they started to look at it and lo and behold, they started to peak their interest. They started to put some performance together and look at it and said, You know what, this works. That was a big change.

 

00;08;51;25 - 00;08;55;09

DP

Yeah. So the architect sold the developer in a way.

 

00;08;55;10 - 00;08;59;07

JH

Exactly. We brought an idea.

 

00;08;59;10 - 00;09;06;17

DP

Yeah, you brought in a great idea. So give us a little history of the location because you guys use some of the existing buildings, correct?

 

00;09;06;19 - 00;09;59;11

JH

That is correct. The site is fantastic. As you know, Fell’s Point is rooted in history going all the way back to the late 1700s and early 1800s. It's a waterfront community here on the harbor in Baltimore. And is known for shipbuilding sales, it's a port. So the establishments, bars, restaurants, all of that catered to folks who were in that industry.

 

Fell’s Point at the time, which would have been 2008, was what you probably hear about Baltimore, boarded up windows and storefronts. And a lot of these properties were not worth much. And so as Dave Holmes and Dan Winter were purchasing these, they had to have some kind of hope and vision that they could transform them.

 

00;09;59;13 - 00;10;05;18

DP

Okay. So tell me a little bit about the scope of the project and the client's programmatic requirements.

 

00;10;05;20 - 00;11;05;28

JH

Sure. The scope of the project, the buildings have historic storefronts, even though many of them, think about it is the 1800s, they were not historic, they were new. And so over time, they go through a transformation that was anything but historically sensitive. So one of the missions was to continue to keep the character of Broadway, of Fell's Point through those storefronts and set back the buildings mass so that it was not present or felt when you're walking along the sidewalk.

 

I'm starting from a massing standpoint to tell you about the program because the storefronts then would still be, and there's about 28,000 square feet of retail and and entertainment. And then there are in total, there are two blocks. There's one on the east side and one on the west side of Broadway. And they total 160 apartment units.

 

00;11;06;00 - 00;11;16;17

DP

I'm trying to picture what this looks like because we got some existing buildings down here and we do have some new architecture as well in plan form. What am I looking at?

 

00;11;16;20 - 00;11;59;23

JH

You're looking at like an amoeba. Unfortunately, apartment units don't like that shape, but the West block touches all four streets around it, so it almost has tentacles and reaches out. So along this storefront were basically 2 to 3 stories and we were able to do that and then set back. But the setback piece is more of a U-shape so that you didn't again have a mass of a building just lurking behind these.

 

You only had the ends of the U-shape. A lot of the use of brick and color and materials in that area was so that they felt like they fit in.

 

00;11;59;25 - 00;12;03;02

DP

So the retail space, is that all new architecture?

 

00;12;03;04 - 00;12;52;10

JH

It is. So the whole block has new storefronts, but they're restored. So they're restored to the historic significance. We went through many photos and did a lot of research. The Historical Society was incredibly helpful in that front. The depth of this storefront or what was behind those is new. When you go out into, say, the suburbs, you're used to a concrete podium with, say, four levels of stick frame construction above it.

 

That is essentially what we did in this project. We have a concrete podium that separates the retail use from the residential use above that's needed by code, but also makes laying out the apartments above much more easily.

 

00;12;52;12 - 00;13;03;09

DP

So let's talk a little bit about stylistic choice for the new architecture and then what you guys ultimately did to restore to the exteriors of some of these existing buildings.

 

00;13;03;12 - 00;14;21;23

JH

Terrific. Yeah, we had a good dialog with the Historic Preservation group here. One of the concerns is always when you create new are you competing or you're trying to match the historic facades. And we literally had on the west block two missing teeth that were non contributing and it was obvious they were not contributing to the historic fabric of the community.

 

So our challenge was how to blend in. And this is where Glen-Gery was incredibly helpful with the brick choices, the brick style and how we detailed it. So we went with a more simplistic detailing of soldiers and roll locks than a brick facade on both of the missing infill pieces. So you had a character that was still there but not trying to replicate, and that's how we worked on the Broadway facades. Around the perimeter, if you want to look, there are two alleys on either end of the buildings. Those are brick buildings. They fit in, but took the same approach where we use bricks so that it became part of the urban fabric without trying to mimic the historic aspects of the existing.

 

00;14;21;26 - 00;14;28;02

DP

Did Glen-Gery have bricks that matched the original bricks from that long ago? From the 1800s?

 

00;14;28;05 - 00;14;55;02

JH

No. But we had some that fit really well. There were molded bricks. We use the Catawba, which is a Cushwa line on the Broadway faces. In the back, we used 56-DD brick, which is more of a monolithic brick. So that one, it's still molded, but it was more uniform. So you did have a little bit more of a contemporary feel or use to the brick than you do on the historic facades.

 

00;14;55;05 - 00;15;10;13

DP

Interesting. So back to the planning process for a second. So you guys, you sit down, you do some sketches, you got some ideas, you talk with the developers, and then when did it turn into a project and how long did it take from beginning to end?

 

00;15;10;20 - 00;17;56;28

JH

How long do you have? I think the process started in early 2008. We started our firm in 2006, so this was a significant project for us. We worked very close with Dan Winter and Dave Holmes through this process. They had been working with the neighborhood groups, listening then what they want. So we took these bum wad sketches and floor plans and stuff like that, and then it started to become real.

 

And then we could start to put together some imagery of the facades. We could start to look at how we were affecting adjacent neighbors and start showing them a reduced massing than what was proposed before we started this project. And that started to win over some converts. And so that process and going through, which you may have heard in this area called CHAP, which is the Commission for Historic and Architectural Preservation, was that historic piece probably took a year.

 

So we were still in a design process for a good year after we started and then I'd say about another nine months to a year after that, we got into construction documents again, history, right? So now we're into 2009 and we all know what happened in that era with the real estate market. So we had finished construction documents as a recession, The Great Recession was happening and the thought process was, let's file for permit. So again, I'm glad you're sitting because it is a long story. I'll try to keep it somewhat short and there are details to fill in that are fascinating. We did file in 2009. It sat for years for a number of reasons. For one, they couldn't get financing.

 

You can imagine paying 2006, 2007 prices and then suddenly the bank takes a look at your property and says it's worth a 10th of that so you don't have equity in the project anymore. And so they were running up against hurdles for this. So the project sat and they were then looking for partners that could help with the project.

 

So enter Klein Enterprises and Dolben is out of Boston, Massachusetts, and Kline is a local developer here. So they came in and basically took over the project with a little bit of revisioning. So it was probably two years after that. And the construction wound up, I think it was 2012, 2013 when we finally had substantial completion.

 

So you're looking at four or five years.

 

00;17;57;00 - 00;18;05;18

DP

Yeah, that's a long time to hang with the project, especially when you're done with the drawings and then everything just sits here like, what am I going to do now?

 

00;18;05;19 - 00;18;44;19

JH

Right, right. It was interesting. I learned a lot about developers along the way as we took the plans, took the idea to a number of other developers to partner with. Some of them didn't want anything to do with the retail piece. They love the residential, but they don't do retail. And I think that's where this partnership and where it landed was a great fit.

 

Dolben has tens of thousands of apartment units. Klein, there's a lot of mixed use, and so they were not afraid and they know the neighborhood and started to have a vision for what they could create in terms of an atmosphere and a buzz in that part of Fell's Point.

 

00;18;44;22 - 00;18;57;22

DP

So back to construction. So you're under construction. Any unique construction details that you guys came across using brick or anything else, especially with all these existing buildings out there, right?

 

00;18;57;25 - 00;20;23;26

JH

It was probably one of the most challenging projects you’re going to look at. I'm sure you've talked to a number of architects that when you do an urban infill, it's a challenge. We touch over a dozen property lines on the west block and over a dozen on the east block. Each one of those neighbors needed to be notified.

 

You had to figure out how you're going to close the gap on those property lines, how you're going to flash onto other people's party walls. Essentially, as boring as the back of the place was. We had wall sections at every property line because each one was a unique condition on the west block, where we have almost 100 apartment units, we also have an underground parking garage.

 

So we have about 60 parking spaces underground and all the initial readings or that we have a water table. So here you're creating a bathtub, you've got a water table. And I think it was Hurricane Sandy that had a storm surge that pushed water up to that block as well. So now you're thinking, okay, how do I prevent water from above and below from filling this garage?

 

And so we had to create under-floor and remediation for the ground water as it swells and being able to pump it, that water table rises and lowers. So when it rises, you're pumping 24/7.

 

00;20;23;28 - 00;20;31;06

DP

So how did you guys resolve this? You're still pumping water out of there. When the groundwater rises up and it's like a bathtub that you built.

 

00;20;31;11 - 00;20;33;07

JH

Exactly. You are.

 

00;20;33;09 - 00;20;35;17

DP

Unbelievable. That's expensive.

 

00;20;35;19 - 00;21;07;07

JH

It's expensive. And again, you can imagine, I mean, now we're 12 feet below all the properties around us as well. So there was an incredible amount of documentation of the properties adjacent to this project. To be sure these 1800 structures don't settle, don't crack, and then making deals with each one of them that if that happens, we'll repair it.

 

So there was an incredible amount of liability on the contractor owner and architects and engineers as well.

 

00;21;07;09 - 00;21;30;06

DP

Wow. You guys have a real constitution. I don't think I could handle that. Just way too much responsibility. You know, interestingly, I did some work with Habitat for Humanity when we lived in Baltimore. And I remember these brick buildings, these row homes, they were crumbling. When the brick is that old, did you guys run into issues like that?

 

00;21;30;09 - 00;22;27;06

JH

We did. The interesting part of this was finding a right contractor that could deal with this. You weren't looking at a suburban stick frame guy. They'd look at it and were scared. So we needed somebody that had some chops. We ended up with Lendlease and they did a terrific job supporting the historic facades during this time. And so we had every ten feet, a steel column going up the front of the facade and then being supported laterally with other beams and huge cement blocks to keep them from falling as things were excavated behind it.

 

So it was painstakingly slow at that point. But then also the timing had to be right in order to get the concrete slab there to then reinforce and support those walls and to tie them back in to the concrete slab so that they wouldn't, you know, fall out or fall in.

 

00;22;27;08 - 00;22;52;19

DP

It takes a special kind of person and firm to do this kind of work, to be involved in that stuff. Architects do all different kinds of jobs, right? And this is one of them working with historic architecture. So what about drawings? What kind of drawings did you guys put together for the architecture? Was it 2D, 3D, lots of details? And then of course, you had to hire engineers and do drawings for the existing condition work.

 

00;22;52;25 - 00;24;05;19

JH

That's correct. And early on there's a bit of surveying that you do. I would say that it was also incredible working with a civil engineer, because if you think each one of these properties also has utilities coming in and out of it, making sure that we're staying away from all of these. So the underground piece of this became incredibly complicated. The three dimensional aspects, my partners and I are not old, but, you know, we still do a lot by hand. So a lot of the three dimensional stuff in order to get information out there quickly was by hand a lot of two dimensional facades around the project to see how it would relate to the adjacent properties. A lot of wall sections. This would have been wonderful if we had the technology today and, you know, have a drone or something scan the existing conditions in three dimensions. There was a lot of back and forth. Fortunately, it's only a half a mile from our office, so it could be down there in a heartbeat as soon as they discovered things during construction. And that was a vital way of solving some of the problems that came up because so many of them you can't anticipate.

 

You can only suggest a solution until things get uncovered.

 

00;24;05;21 - 00;24;14;11

DP

Yeah. Instead of getting in your car and driving a half hour, you walk right out onto the street and walk down the street and you can take a look at whatever challenge you face that day.

 

00;24;14;14 - 00;24;15;08

JH

That's correct.

 

00;24;15;15 - 00;24;23;27

DP

So did your team learn anything interesting through the design and construction process? That's a loaded question.

 

00;24;24;00 - 00;26;07;16

JH

It is. And I'd say, you know, even just this discussion, you can see I mean, all of these things are something new. And I think that's the beauty of the profession. As you mentioned, you work on so many different types of projects. And what I love about how we work as a firm that we don't have these vertical silos, we work across different typologies and bring that knowledge base to each project, which lends itself to something like this where you have mixed uses.

 

So the retail spaces on the ground floor needed to have If I'm going to put a kitchen in there for a restaurant, I need exhaust. That's got to go up through a couple stories of apartment buildings. So that kind of coordination, anticipating the needs of each component so that each of them stood alone and was able to be successful on their own rather than handicapping one.

 

One of the things we were not able to do is create what would be normal for a retailer today in terms of ceiling heights. We had to hit the second floor windows of the facades. So sometimes that meant that a retailer could only have maybe a nine or ten foot ceiling in there in order to get all the ductwork and lighting and everything else below the concrete slab.

 

I'd say what we really learned was from a design perspective, how to work with the community. I think that was the big success here, that we were able to revitalize an area of Fell's Point, bring life to it, bring housing for people, for more activity, and to do that successfully where the community was extremely happy with the end result.

 

00;26;07;18 - 00;26;24;04

DP

So I'm curious, some of these brick buildings, the existing brick buildings, how did you guys handle the new interior wall systems insulation and how did that work and did that decrease then the interior space? Because some of these buildings are probably pretty narrow.

 

00;26;24;09 - 00;27;18;17

JH

That's correct. Working with a different module that you're basically given was different and you ended up with almost a wall within a wall in order to get the proper insulation and which made for some unique conditions out the windows where you notice how, you know, like suddenly you've got a big inset that's about a foot and a half to the window.

 

There were some cases where we had to bump up the ceiling or bump down the floor a little bit where some of these windows were as as much as we tried. There were some things we just couldn't change. So this section is what was fascinating on these projects in that front facade along Broadway, we had to ramp down a couple of feet in order to get to the level that was needed for those apartments.

 

So it was both in section and then also horizontally in terms of laying out apartments that utilize the existing facades.

 

00;27;18;19 - 00;27;30;22

DP

Yeah, a lot of site specific challenging conditions. I can see why being out there, being in person was really important because every building's going to be just a little bit different.

 

00;27;30;29 - 00;27;31;28

JH

That's correct.

 

00;27;32;00 - 00;27;46;16

DP

Before you go, John, you've been an architect for some time. Based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for either your younger self or maybe young architects coming up in the profession?

 

00;27;46;18 - 000;29;02;11

JH

I'd like to just call it dumb luck, but I was really, really fortunate to land in a dream job in the late eighties, and it set me on a course for a career that was, this has been phenomenal and a journey. Going to the University of Cincinnati, having a co-op program was fascinating. Your third year, you're going to work for a firm for three months and nobody wanted to work in New York City.

 

And so I said, I'll go. And that firm happened to be KPF. So I cut my teeth in college with six months working at Kohn Pedersen Fox working on international high rise structures. That set me on a course that took me from there to Disney Development to the West Coast, then back to Ohio before I even graduated college. So I tell that story because that's my advice to folks.

 

Go for it. Don't be shy. Try to find a path that speaks to your heart. And you know, it's one of the beautiful things about the United States is you can travel, you can go to another location where the jobs are, where you want to be, where you fit.

 

00;29;02;18 - 00;29;07;04

DP

Well, that's a really interesting point. I think we forget that. I certainly do.

 

00;29;07;06 - 00;29;11;03

JH

Got a little international connection that reminds me of it quite a bit.

 

00;29;11;05 - 00;29;18;18

DP

So, John, it's been great to have you here today. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about JP2 Architects and yourself?

 

00;29;18;21 - 00;29;37;17

JH

Well, we are active on social media, so your normal spots of LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Our website is JP2architects.com. And as with a lot of folks, we're looking for people to grow with us. It's an exciting time right now.

 

00;29;37;20 - 00;29;41;11

DP

That's a great little plug. Awesome, man. Well, it's been great to meet you, John.

 

00;29;41;17 - 00;29;51;29

JH

I'll do one more plug. Part of this project is an isolated corner of the 600 block of Broadway, and that is where Brickworks is located.

 

00;29;52;00 - 00;29;53;04

DP

Get out of town.

 

00;29;53;07 - 00;30;27;18

JH

So that is one of the main reasons we wanted to use this project, not only because of the incredible history and everything else associated with it. We thought for sure that corner was made for a Starbucks, a first floor and a second floor seating. But that is not going to happen in Fell's Point. Fell's Point is about local businesses, local restaurants and Brickworks Studio there is phenomenal. I love it. It is such a great fit and we love having them a resource that's just down the street.

 

00;30;27;25 - 00;30;52;07

DP

Yeah, it's kind of perfect.