TRANSCRIPT

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Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

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Will Quam (WQ)

The Fulton Market area, I think, is the place where some of the best brick architecture in Chicago is currently happening, because it's a place where you have a lot of these historical buildings and you have a lot of people coming in there building offices, residences, restaurants, and they want to make it feel like it's part of that history.

And so they're using brick. And then you have a lot of architects who are really pushing the limits on what they're able to decoratively do with the brick.

00;00;30;26 - 00;01;42;04

DP

This is my guest, Will Quam. I'll share more about him shortly in this bonus episode from the Design Vault. We talked to Will, an architecture photographer, writer, researcher and man who was fascinated with brick.

Hi. I'm Doug Patt and this is Design Vault. Will Quam lives in Chicago. He's currently writing a book for the University of Chicago Press on the history of brick architecture in the city.

He documents brick as a way to pay more attention to the world around him and encourages others to do the same. He believes it's been like learning a whole new language and a means to discovering great texts hidden in the buildings that surround him in his own words. Everything built is designed and has impact, good or bad. It's easy to walk by something like a brick building and pay it no mind.

But the world is so much more interesting when you ask the question, What is that and why is it the way it is? Above all, he believes nothing is boring and everything can be interesting and exciting, even bricks. So welcome Will, it's nice to have you with us today.

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WQ

Thank you so much, Doug. It's great to be here.

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DP

So tell us a little bit about where you're from and how you became so interested in brick and brick architecture.

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WQ

I became interested in bricks through a very circuitous route. I am from Saint Paul, Minnesota, originally, which is a good brick town, a smaller brick town. I studied theater, I directed, I did set design. I acted, and I moved to Chicago originally to be a theater teacher, and that's what I did for about nine years. I taught middle school theater.

I taught afterschool programs, in school residencies. I wrote and directed plays with middle schoolers. The great thing about that work, besides just, you know, it was so fulfilling working with kids is my work brought me all over the city in the suburbs of Chicago, and Chicago is massive. The south side of Chicago alone is the size of Philadelphia.

And so coming from a place like Saint Paul, it was an introduction to a much larger built world. And so through my work, I was, you know, on the north side in the morning, the south side in the afternoon, the west side, in the evening, the suburbs the next day. And going around Chicago, you start to see that there are these very repetitive building types, the bungalow, the two flat, the courtyards style, the apartment hotel, and they're all made of brick pretty much exclusively.

You get some stone, you get the very occasional wood, but brick is the defining material. And I started to notice that it was the brick and specifically the face, the bricks on the front of these buildings that made them all unique. And they weren't just these red rectangles that I'd always thought of a brick as being. There's texture, there's color, there's pattern, there's usage.

And so I started taking pictures on my phone. And then one day in the basement of a theater where I was running a middle school theater camp, I started Instagram and posted them and people started asking me questions. And so I said, Well, I better research this, dove down the rabbit hole and then seven years later, here I am.

It's become my full time job, taking pictures for architects and suppliers and engineers. And then I lead these brick tours to such a natural spinoff of my earlier work. Taking that excitement and giving it away. I think that's the biggest thing about my work is I'm not trying to gate keep anything. I don't have a background in this.

I'm just a very passionate learner. And then on, my goal is just to give everything away in the most interesting and exciting way possible.

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DP

Do you ever think to yourself, I should have been an architect?

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WQ

I'm very lucky in that my great grandfather was an architecture journalist and instilled a lot of that in my dad. My great grandfather's the great John Entenza, who did the case study houses. I never met him, but my dad knew him well. So we grew up going on a lot of architecture tours, a lot of historic home tours.

And really the importance of the built world was instilled to me as a young man, but it was always something I thought, you know, I would just enjoy. And maybe that is I'm very lucky that I grew up playing trombone and singing in choirs, and I went to space camp and I was encouraged to have all these very multifaceted interests by parents who had these very multifaceted interests as well.

And so I was very lucky to be able to feel like I could explore things.

00;04;36;25 - 00;04;58;26

DP

It sounds really cool. I mean, it's almost like you're walking down the street and you see a building and it's made of brick, and it occurs to you, you get this thought like, Hey, that's kind of cool. I wonder why that looks like that. And then the next day gets a little more important. The next day gets a little bit more fascinating, and all of a sudden you've got this interest in something that sits so far outside of your wheelhouse. In a way, it's amazing.

00;04;59;02 - 00;05;37;16

WQ

Exactly. You know, it starts with somebody asking, What's that pattern? And me, I guess I'll look on Wikipedia and then I'm emailing a brick dealer, and then I'm finding books on the history of brick architecture to the point where now last week I spent a whole day at the University of Illinois Library reading through old copies of the brick and clay record from the 1970s.

And what makes it so great in Chicago, too, is you truly can walk down any street and you'll find great brick architecture, any residential street anywhere in this entire city. And the city is so big and changing so much so constantly that you can go down the same street again ten years later and you can have so many new things to discover.

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DP

Yeah. As an aside, have you been to the Monadnock Building?

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WQ

Love the Monadnock Building.

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DP

Right? When I was in architecture school and I learned about that building and the fact that the base is six feet thick of brick masonry as the load bearing structure. The first thing I did when I got to Chicago was go to that building. I'm I just couldn't believe it. Right. It's amazing.

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WQ

It's an unbelievable it's one I found has such lasting power as well as I interview architects. So many times, I'll ask them, what's your favorite brick building in the city? And I'd say 50% say the Monadnock Building. It's so honest with its material and so inventive at the same time. You know, one of the things as I've looked at it and photographed it, I've noticed is there's no hard lines on the building.

It's all using this molded brick made by the Chicago Anderson Brick Company. You get the sort of the plinth that rises up and then curves into the building and that it's not a sharp edge from a brick to another brick that's turning; there's a rounded brick to bridge that gap at every point. So the lines are kept incredibly smooth throughout the whole thing through this really intentional use.

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DP

Yeah. Now, how about the cornice?

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WQ

Oh, tremendous. Every piece of that was intentionally planned that way. There's nothing was done on accident, and that's still true today. You know, one of the things I try to push back on a lot is, you know, in my work, I'm a lot of times focusing and studying and photographing historic buildings and they're amazing. But people sort of feel that permission to say, oh, well, we just don't make them like we used to.

And there's only crap being made today and it's just not true. There's a lot of really amazing buildings being built today. The way we make them is different. The style we make them is different, but that's because so much has changed in the materials we use, making things efficient, making labor safe. And there's a lot of really great design out there that if we just say we don't make them like we used to, we neglect the work that architects and designers are still doing today with the same intentionality they were doing in the 1890 and the man was built.

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DP

Well, it's a great segway. So we're going to talk about a few pieces of architecture today, two Chicago pieces and one New York City and then maybe some other buildings. So let's dig in here and learn a little bit more about brick architecture. First, let's talk about the Chicago Park District HQ Building by John Ronan Architects in Chicago.

The Chicago Park District headquarters is a 78,000 square foot building comprised of headquarters office space for the Chicago Park District Staff and Field House on a 17 acre park. The headquarters building is a two story circle in plan, with two courtyards. The building has a unique facade with individually curved metal panels, curtain wall glazing and a light brown brick facade with brick patterning.

An interesting fact that Will points out about the building, and in regard to the brick masonry set, the bricks used are all Chicago common bricks which were made locally. So Will, let's start out with that. Tell us a little bit more about the bricks of this building.

00;08;38;23 - 00;12;56;07

WQ

Yeah, they're made of Chicago common bricks which are the bricks made locally in Chicago and most cities in the 1800s and for part of the 1900s were producing their own brick, both common brick and face brick, face brick being the nicer, more intentionally made brick used on the fronts of buildings and common brick, the cheaper stuff to go in the guts.

What made Chicago unique is that we only made common brick. Our clay, which we had in massive abundance thanks to this glacial lake that you cover all of this dry land in Chicago, Lake Michigan used to extend far over what's now dry land. The still waters of that lake allowed all this clay to settle, but all this other stuff settled in that clay as well.

The perfect mix for making bricks. But it made bricks that were, frankly to those architects of that era, very ugly. They weren't predictable in any way. The levels of mineral in them were really varied, but one batch might come out yellow, one brown, one pink, one red, all these chunks of limestone in them. But the clay was right there and it was super cheap to make.

And so we made a ton of that and threw it in our buildings. But then we would import other bricks, nicer bricks from Saint Louis or Milwaukee or Pennsylvania or Texas to put on the fronts of buildings. But Chicago kept making these common bricks, and we made a massive amount of them. In 1871, the year of the Great Fire of Chicago, Chicago produced about a hundred million of them a year.

And part of what makes the timing of the fire so good, a little ironically, is that the year of the Fire, 1871, the Chicago brick industry had really finished mechanizing pretty much by that year. And so when the city burned down, the city was in, the brick makers of Chicago were in a unique position to help rebuild the city out of brick.

So that fire code, a new fire code could be met in a way that other cities like Boston, Boston's burned down several times because they kept having to rebuild out of wood. Chicago had this local brick making machinery to make it possible to rebuild with brick. So the year the fire reproduced about 100 million of them a year.

Ten years later, Chicago was producing 200 million of these a year. And by 1916, Chicago was producing just shy of 1 billion common bricks a year. And that's the year Chicago actually surpassed the Hudson Valley of upstate New York, which provided all the common brick for New York City. By 1916, Chicago's producing more common bricks than the entire common brick area of New York City.

About 11% of all the brick made in the United States in 1916, face brick or common brick was Chicago, common brick and more by about 100 million than all the brick made in Missouri, Wisconsin, Iowa and Indiana combined that year. So we made a ton of brick in these surface plants all over the city, and we kept it all local for the most part.

And so you go around Chicago into alleys and sides of buildings, and this is the brick that you see, this messy looking brick. And it was always covered up because it was considered too unpredictable, too ugly. But what happened was, starting in the 1960s, as we're entering this era of bright glazed bricks or these sort of sleek, smooth, sort of noisy and modern bricks, you get a generation of architects who start to be really drawn to the antique accidental look of these bricks, the variation on them.

This is the time as urban renewal was sort of ravaging Chicago, when all these buildings are being torn down all over the place and people start to save these common bricks and put them in new buildings because they can add the sense of antique ness and age to buildings in a way that a modern market and this new market of reclaimed brick is born.

And then by the 1982, when the last Chicago common brick manufacturer shuts down, there's suddenly this massive market for these reclaimed bricks. First for an antique look to a building in the seventies and eighties as people are really drawn to these earth tones, browns and rough sort of creamy whites of brick. But then today, especially, and in the case especially of this new Chicago Park district headquarters, these bricks, they've embodied carbon in them and so they get you a lot of lead points and they're much more eco friendly material to use.

And so you start to see a lot more use of this reclaimed material because of the way it ties in to a greater focus on ecological buildings. And it's perfect for this building. It's a gorgeous building sitting on this massive park and having this really earthy brick that's full of color variation, full of all these stones, full of all this stuff.

It makes it feel like it really is growing out of the park and a part of the park rather than a lot of park buildings that feel like they’re just placed down into the park.

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DP

So I'm curious, just to back up, why did Chicago stop producing common brick? Was it because brick masonry was no longer load bearing? We were using steel and iron.

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WQ

Yes. So Chicago and the country stopped using common brick, mostly after the Second World War when cavity wall construction became prominent. Concrete block is just a lot larger and a lot cheaper. In 1952, in Chicago, a 77 square foot wall of Chicago commons would cost about $120 to lay parts and labor. The same size wall out of concrete block was about $45.

And so this cost savings were huge. As labor then became more and more expensive and concrete became more and more affordable, people started moving away from the common brick. Then what happened is in 1970, Congress passes the Clean Air Act, forms the EPA and brick plants all over the country are putting tons of sulfur dioxide and ozone and smog into the air.

And for a lot of those companies, it was not too difficult to get into compliance. You know, you have a big beehive kill or tunnel kill, and you could put a scrubber on your vents and start to clean up your operation. These common brick manufacturers, by that point, there were just two left in the Chicago area. They were using what are called Pskov kilns, which basically you take a bunch of unfired bricks, make them into this massive pile with channels running through it.

You cover it in fired bricks and set it on fire from the inside. It's a super cheap way to make bricks that don't need to look nice but are effective. But the comparison I like to make is a traditional kiln works like an oven. You take your turkey, you put it in the oven, you close the door, you turn it on.

A Pskov kiln that the Chicago commons were made in. You take that same turkey, you put it on your countertop, you stick a gas jet in the butt you cover it in deli meat and light it on fire. It's a lot more messy. It does the same job, but it's a lot more messy and it's a lot harder to clean up.

And so the Chicago common plants looked at the economics. They were losing market share. They looked at the clay. They had left the Illinois brick company in Blue Island decided, we've only got about three years clay left or just shut down. And then they looked at the environmental impact. One of these companies in Muncie, Indiana, on days that they were burning there were certain intersections you just couldn't drive because they were so smog filled. To the credit of the American beer company who was in that last company, they spent tens and tens of thousands of dollars trying to find ways to come into compliance and to make it a cleaner operation and continue this business.

But it ultimately just wasn't economically viable.

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DP

So back to the Chicago Park District headquarters building, did you ever read anything about why John Ronan Architects ultimately used common brick for the exterior of New York?

00;15;34;14 - 00;16;42;04

WQ

Yeah. A friend of mine supplied those reclaimed bricks for him. A big part of it was that environmental impact using that embodied carbon, using a local material, not needing to create any new emissions through the creation of material, and also the fact that it's a reclaimed material taken from demolished buildings nearby. It's taking that local material and using it for a local purpose, making it something more true to that place.

Then a different kind of imported brick. And John Ronan is an architect who really loves brick and has used brick in really creative ways. In Chicago, he did a high school at South Shore International Academy where he was very specific about these different colors or slightly different tones of brick, sort of a creamy white and a little bit more of a beige and figuring out exactly where he wanted these bands to go on the building.

He had a house on the north side that uses these super long format bricks in a really interesting way to enliven up this very geometric or rectilinear facade. So someone who's super intentional about brick and so the Park District headquarters is another example of him using brick in that really intentional way.

00;16;42;07 - 00;17;36;17

DP

Yeah, the building's really unique and it sounds like a very thoughtful office. So next, let's talk about McDonald's HQ in Chicago. The architect of record was Gensler. When I sat down to do a little bit of research online, I really couldn't find a whole lot of pictures which describe this building. There are many exterior pics that are kind of further away shots.

The interior photos that I did find on a variety of websites, really quite stunning with wood clad interior, gracious curves and a very contemporary feel. The exterior is also quite interesting. The building almost seems inverted with a steel and glass base and square glass curtain wall openings framed in brick above. So these brick frames are really actually quite beautiful.

And you sent me a couple of photos of these. Let's talk about those.

00;17;36;20 - 00;19;44;07

WQ

Yeah. So it's a big steel and glass building, but it does have these large brick frames that surround two stories of windows each. It's all precast thin brick made by a company in Germany. And to get to the importance of what that brick is on the building and why it's there, I think it's important to talk about the neighborhood it's in.

It's in an area called Fulton Market, part of the West Loop of Chicago, which a lot of people have probably heard of as sort of Chicago's new restaurant and tech hub. It was an area of meatpacking and warehouses and manufacturing for many, many years. In the last 15 years, it's become this massive area for some of the best restaurants in the city.

Google has a building there now, and so it's full of all these big brick buildings, these big old brick warehouses or storage buildings with large windows. And so I think it's so wonderful that this new steel and glass building made the intentional choice to embrace that brick material. But the other thing I love about it is that we talked about with Chicago common brick brick is no longer really being used as a structural material in the United States.

And so buildings like this that take that nature, that brick is no longer a structural material. They take it and use it instead as a purely decorative material. And I think they do such a wonderful job on this building because it's the thin brick that runs around these windows, sort of blue ish and golden and orange colors with a rolled edge and a little bit of sort of a knock or sort of bumps and stuff on the face of it.

It describes this herringbone and zigzag pattern through these spandrels and these mullions that run along the building in a way that serves no structural purpose at all. But it is beautiful to look at and tie in through the use of that brick. It ties it into the neighborhood. I think that's just such a wonderful thing to do at a time when a lot of new construction and here I've said earlier, there is a lot of great new construction, but there is a lot of construction that's using brick and really uninspired ways it's just slap at a bunch of structures up on a wall or between windows. And so to see a building like this, a really prominent building in a really prominent location, in a historic location, I love that they're using brick in such an interesting way.

00;19;44;09 - 00;20;03;15

DP

Yeah, I'd love to see the studies in the architect's office for all of these or for the variety of brick patterns where you get soldier coursing. You've got stacked herringbone, as you stated, you almost have something that looks close to a Greek key as well. It's really quite beautiful and the color is stunning in the sun.

00;20;03;22 - 00;20;29;01

WQ

It really is. I captured it in those photos I sent you. It faces the north side of the street. And so you get this beautiful raking light on it in the summer evenings and in the shadow, it's still got this sort of lovely warm orange to it. So it really is very present and there's so much going on.

It's the sort of thing where you look at it and you trace it along and you to start to, like you said, start to find all those little details, different details scattered throughout the brickwork.

00;20;29;08 - 00;20;54;03

DP

You know, it's really nice too. It's almost as though they're expressing the structural system on the exterior with these super tall piers which frame these windows. One starts to think, okay, well, maybe the structural steel system is hidden within that. I don't know whether or not that's actually the case, but it does remind one of an industrial building in Chicago 80 or 90 years ago, right?

00;20;54;09 - 00;21;49;09

WQ

Yeah. And those are the buildings that surround it there. And another little twist. I like that they idea is that those brick frames are not surrounding every single window or they don't run on every single story that you do get these big frames that surround two or three stories I can't quite remember. And so it still gives it this very light feeling, this very open feeling, while having that strong brick tie into the neighborhood.

And the Fulton Market area, I think is the place where some of the best brick architecture in Chicago is currently happening because it's a place where you have a lot of these historical buildings and you have a lot of people coming in there building offices, residences, restaurants, and they want to make it feel like it's part of that history.

And so they're using brick and then you have a lot of architects who are really pushing the limits on what they're able to decoratively do with the brick. And the McDonald's was a pretty fairly early example of that. But there are many more that have come in since they're in the area.

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DP

That's an interesting point. So early McDonald's structures across the United States, do you know if they utilize brick pretty heavily?

00;21;58;26 - 00;23;58;26

WQ

You know, I've researched this. I have emailed with a fast food historian to find some answers. So, yeah, the early McDonald's drive ins were clad in ceramic tile, whites, bright whites, bright red, and then they made a very intentional choice. In 1975 or so, they did a big redesign sort of as the baby boomers who were driving there are now buying homes.

And what they did was they started putting these dark brown bricks. They redesigned their restaurants using this very dark, earthy brick and adding that classic McDonald's double mansard roof. And this is the era when like Wendy's ads for solariums, the restaurants become these very earthy buildings. The first one of those was in Matheson, Illinois, in the south suburbs.

And that was the time too where McDonald's actually built their first corporate headquarters in Oakbrook, Illinois, designed by Dirk Lohan. Mies van der Rohe's grandson, like those restaurants, is a building very much, it's covered in this wonderful sort of earthy iron, spotted brick and surrounded by a manmade lake and all these trees and very much engaging with nature at a time when they're trying to push away from that kind of bright colors, machine age, looking stuff into a more earthy thing.

And then you get into the 1990s and McDonald's does another major rebrand, adding these sort of pastel colors or a lot of painted white brick that I think a lot of people my generation are familiar with as well. And then now a lot of those McDonald's, they've torn them down. They've rebuilt them using smooth grays and blacks and whites.

And so McDonald's, you can really follow you know, one of my big passions is following how people have used brick throughout every decade of history that you can look at a building and based on the color, the texture, the use of the brick to tell when it was built and McDonald's in specific is a great way to do that.

You can look at the restaurants and see how they've changed the restaurants, and that gives you sort of a bellwether of how ideas about what purpose bricks should serve has changed. That's a very long answer to say, yes, McDonald's has used a lot of brick in their restaurants throughout the country.

00;23;58;29 - 00;24;08;04

DP

The building is really interesting because it's also kind of flipped, right? I mean, so the base should be masonry and the upper portion should all be glass and windows.

00;24;08;07 - 00;24;41;18

WQ

I hadn't really noticed that until you brought that up. It is pretty unusual in that way. It's about a two story big steel and glass expressed base story within the brick rising up above, and I don't know why that choice was made, but it is pretty striking and it creates maybe a much open feeling based story. And the base story, they have a restaurant where you can order, you know, all the traditional McDonald's things, but you can also they have a rotating list of items that you can get at McDonald's around the country. So you can get sometimes like a curry burger or something like that that they'd have in McDonald's, India, or I guess it wouldn’t be a burger, a curry chicken sandwich.

00;24;41;25 - 00;24;43;02

DP

The McRib, maybe.

00;24;43;02 - 00;24;46;12

WQ

Yeah, the McRib. All year long. Who knows? We can dream.

00;24;46;15 - 00;25;57;18

DP

Oh, you know, can dream. Oh, that's great. The final building that I'd love to talk about is the Grand Mulberry in New York City by Morris Adjmi Architects. I got to meet Morris Adjmi in the city. We talked a little bit about the Grand Mulberry that evening. The building is absolute stunning. It's incredibly creative. This is paraphrased from their website.

So traditionally, Italianate tenement buildings featured a tripartite white facade that consisted of a base, middle and top with different details and brickwork. The Grand Mulberry facade consists of banding at the building's base, pediment windows at the middle and arched windows and a cornice at the top with coin details defining the base. While the facade pattern is traditional, the application of the hand molded domed bricks is modern, the molded bricks representing an offset window pattern to the real ones.

The red orange color pays further homage to the red brick buildings found in the neighborhoods. So this building is really unique, not only because of its aesthetics, but because they used some custom brick.

00;25;57;20 - 00;28;13;22

WQ

Yeah, it's one of my favorite new brick buildings in the United States and one that I had on my radar for a long time. And I took a trip to New York this summer specifically to go photograph several buildings, and it was one of the first ones I hit because it's just such a striking building and I think a perfect use of brick as a modern material in a couple of ways.

One is that color, that beautiful reddish orange color, and talking about, you know, the history of what kind of bricks are people using in areas and those Italianate tenement buildings, that was an era where they were using this very smooth pressed red brick, and that was sort of the predominant material. So first, that color pays homage and two, like I mentioned before, embracing the brick as a decorative material in an age when it doesn't need to be structural anymore, it could have very easily just been a red brick punched opening building, but then using those specifically hand molded bricks to create that design on the building is such a simple, yet unbelievably inventive way to create design across the facade.

It reminds me a lot of one of my favorite buildings here in Chicago. There's a church, many Chicagoans, they know it. It's Saint Stanislaus Kostka. It's right next to the expressway. It's a big brick church right next to the expressway that you've probably driven by. It's built in 1881 for what came to be the largest Polish Catholic congregation in the country, maybe even the largest Catholic congregation in the country at the time.

It's a huge church made entirely of Chicago common brick. So using the cheapest brick they had available. But what the architect, Brooklyn based architect named [Patrick] Keeley, did, the front of the building, the main central window is very small and it's got wood tracery. But he took that common brick and by pushing it out and turning it created this much larger arc that surrounds it with smaller round sort of bull's eyes and these bands of densely and creates on the facade just through the movement of the brick, the illusion of a much grander central window, a much grander central design using that same material.

And I'm seeing the Grand Mulberry. That's what it immediately ties me back to, it's using that same material in just a slightly different way to create the appearance and the remembrance and the reminder of something different all through the use of the same material, but just in a slightly different way.

00;28;13;25 - 00;28;54;06

DP

Yeah, the building essentially has two facades, right? It has a facade that's made out of brick, and then it has a facade or a facade that's articulated in brick and then the real facade with glass and metal windows. It's a really creative piece of architecture. You know what I love? There are some really great shots of this building online from further away and up above, and the building matches all of the other architecture and yet is completely set apart.

It's like this little wonderfully articulated orange red cube which sets itself apart and yet kind of fits into everything around it. It's a really wonderful building.

00;28;54;09 - 00;30;25;04

WQ

It absolutely is. And the other thing I want to praise about it is the use of those hand molded bricks. They could have done any other sort of thing. They could have, you know, done a projecting header or something to create that design. But again, in this era when brick can be sort of freed as a purely design detail and it is a ceramic material that is made of earth sculpted by people and fired in fire.

We see more and more these days projects taking advantage of specifically that hand process. There's a couple projects here in Chicago, a couple of homes like in Lincoln Park that are using these sculpted hand sculpted bricks that brick companies have these artisans who will take that same material and apply this more sculptural treatment to it in all sorts of different ways, and bring the handmade process back into the fold.

You know, you don't have to get rid of your extruded modulus, but we now have the ability to use brick more decoratively. And let's bring a little bit of the handmade process back into it. And I think that's what is so great about this tool. Also, one of the thing is it could have been so easy for them to have those two facades line up the real and the false.

And it's just so spectacular to me that there is that offset, that offset to them also that the building has you know, it's this tripart, the tenements, but they're sort of the two pushed together and then there's it's almost as if another one kind of got built in later with a thick party wall. Again, it's not a perfect repetition of the same form over and over again.

It looks more realistic to how the city would have organically been built.

00;30;25;07 - 00;30;28;00

DP

Well, you talk just like an architect.

00;30;28;02 - 00;30;32;26

WQ

Listen, I'll take it. I'll take it. This is what you get if you don't have hobbies for many, many years.

00;30;32;29 - 00;30;40;02

DP

That's great. So I know you give tours. Do you do any teaching? Because you'd be an amazing teacher if you're not already.

00;30;40;08 - 00;33;10;13

WQ

I appreciate that. Yeah. So I don't do any teaching. I have taught photo classes and I have given a lot of talks with groups on the history of brick architecture, both for you know, architecture classes but also for things like various interest groups. But then I give these tours. I started about five years ago. A friend of mine who runs a great tour company here in Chicago called Chicago for Chicagoans basically slipped in my DMs and was like, You've got to do tours, you got to do it.

And I was like, okay, I guess I will. It's been perfect. I love doing it. It takes advantage of the teaching background I have. And like I said, I'm a guy who I like to see things and I like to tell people about them. I never want to and similar, you know, I do all this research for these two words using all these databases and newspaper archives and things.

And whenever anybody asks me how I do my research, I just can't wait to tell them I don't want to keep anything. I want you to be able to do all this research and dive into your own things as well. And the great thing about the tours is, you know, when I first started them four years ago, they were very solely brick focused.

You know, I'm teaching you about rowlock, soldier, shiner and all these things, but now as they've grown to eight different neighborhoods around the city and hopefully ten by next year, I treat brick as the beginning. If I can get you excited about a brick, I can get you to look closer at anything. You're going to look way too close to the brick, but you're also going to see the other ways in which the built environment or even the invisible environments change our city.

And Chicago's this amazing city because it has so much history and so many generations of history with 77 official neighborhoods. All of those are Brooklyn sub neighborhoods, and all of those have had several different generations of people and stories there. So every single place you go, you can find all this depth to dive into. If I can give one of my favorite examples that ties to brick when I tell people about Chicago common brick, you know, I talk about these clay pits that were all over the city.

There's a big one on the north side here. There's three small clay pits, these three small companies, and by 1900 they had formed into one large company, mining one big pit. By 1915, they moved out to Blue Island in the south suburbs. The city bought that pit from the city, filled it with garbage to get it back to ground level, paved it over.

And in 1929, they built Lane Tech High School on top of it, which is one of the largest high schools in the country and one of the most prestigious high schools in Chicago. It's this huge, beautiful gothic revival, high school built on this former clay pit that you wouldn't even know was there. And that's a wonderful example of all these things that are just hidden all over Chicago.

And you really don't have to look too hard to find them.

00;33;10;16 - 00;33;44;17

DP

Well, it's been a real pleasure to have you here today. You know, as much more than any architect or architectural historian about the subject of brick. And you're incredibly intelligent and articulate and what blows me away is that you do talk just like an architect. So it's been a real pleasure to have you here before you go, you're a guy with many varied interests.

Do you have any advice for someone who's passionate about so many things or maybe just about one thing and doesn't really know where to start?

00;33;44;23 - 00;34;22;16

WQ

I mean, I would say it can be hard. It can be difficult to start, but just the thing to do is start small and start somewhere. I'm someone who very much once I find something I want to know about, I can get way in my own way of like, Well, this can be too hard to learn everything, so it's not worth it.

You start somewhere. You know, for me, it was Wikipedia. It truly was just Wikipedia. And I started getting answers to questions. And then I start getting more questions. And that let me keep asking more questions and keep getting more answers and keep getting more questions and more answers. So I think it's just choose to start in a way that is simple and accessible to you and to dive down as deep as you can.

00;34;22;22 - 00;34;37;24

DP

Yeah, I think what's challenging for most people is they overthink it and wonder where everything's going. And it would seem to me that your experience has been so organic that it's worked out for you in many ways that you never really anticipated it.

00;34;37;26 - 00;35;09;21

WQ

Exactly. And something that is also really important to me is saying when I don't know the answer to something, you know, if someone asked me a question I don't know, just saying I don't know, because I think so often the instinct is to if you are want to be an expert in something, to try to pull things together, to create an answer to something you don't necessarily know.

But I think from my teaching days and working with kids and young people, it's so valuable not to do that, to be able to admit when you don't know the answer. And that often will lead people to their own curiosity and finding those answers for themselves. And then you can go off and do your research, too.

00;35;09;28 - 00;35;17;11

DP

Will, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Could you tell us about your websites and how people can find you?

00;35;17;17 - 00;35;53;22

WQ

Yeah. So my website is BrickofChicago.com. And that's where I have information about, you know, you can learn about brick bonds, you can learn about the history of Chicago common brick and my tours and I make a calendar as well and my website WillQuam.com, and that's for my architecture photography work.

I take pictures for architects and engineers and landscape architects and all sorts of people and organizations are around Chicago, so you can see my work there. And then I'm on Instagram, @bricksofchicago, posting different bricks from around Chicago, and then my travels every single day.

00;35;53;27 - 00;35;54;17

DP

Thanks, Will.

00;35;54;24 - 00;35;59;14

WQ

Thank you so much. It's been a delight.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;08

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

00;00;05;10 - 00;00;22;07

John Hutch (JH)

One of the missions was to continue to keep the character of Broadway, of Fell's Point through those storefronts and set back the building's mass so that it was not present or felt when you're walking along the sidewalk.

00;00;22;14 - 00;02;25;12

DP

This is my guest, John Hutch. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from The Design Vault. We highlight John's Project Marketplace at Fell's Point. Marketplace Fell's Point is located in historic Fell's Point, Baltimore, Maryland. The new urban lifestyle apartments feature open rooms that maximize exterior daylight and the views. The bulk of the units in the marketplace project open onto private courtyard space, complete with firepits and water features.

Many of the units are rehabbed historic buildings from the late 1800s with large windows and special features. The apartment buildings have direct access to over 100 community retail and entertainment venues on Fell's Point waterfront. In addition to the private courtyards, the project also features a club room, lounge, fitness center and secure parking for the residents.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. John Hutch, one of the founding partners and a principal at JP2 Architects in Baltimore, Maryland. John has a Bachelor of Science degree in architecture from the University of Cincinnati. He plays an active role in the professional development and awareness of sustainable design within his firm. He brings 30 years of experience leading the design process of employing project management with an emphasis on project delivery.

He has a background in both public and private sector work, which provides diverse experience for all of the projects the office takes on. John has an international portfolio of mixed use projects which include corporate hospitality, retail, multifamily and entertainment facilities. So welcome, John. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about JP2 Architects, where you guys are located in Baltimore? What's the size of your firm? How long have you been around and what kind of work do you do?

00;02;25;14 - 00;03;00;16

JH

Great. Thanks, Doug. We are about a 20 person firm, and we're located in the Canton area of Baltimore, which is adjacent to Fell's Point, where this project is located. We founded JP2 Architects in 2006 and I have two other founding partners, Jamie Pett and Gordon Gaudet. The three of us have been working together for almost 30 years now.

When I moved here in 1995, I got to know the two of them and we've been friends and colleagues and now partners ever since.

00;03;00;18 - 00;03;02;12

DP

Wow, That's really cool. How did you meet?

00;03;02;13 - 00;03;19;23

JH

So we all met at the large international firm of our RTKL, and we were each in the commercial group. Although I tended to bounce around between groups, which gave me a diverse experience. But we were still young, rising up through the ranks and learning a lot.

00;03;20;00 - 00;03;23;19

DP

That's really interesting. Did you guys always know that you wanted to start a firm together?

00;03;23;21 - 00;03;54;10

JH

No. We each probably had different starting points. I'd say it was always my dream to start a firm and I can thank my parents for saying hold on, hold on, hold on, you need more experience. So when I moved here to Baltimore, met the two of them, I spent about ten or 12 years there prior to the three of us starting, and I couldn't ask for better partners.

We each fulfill a different niche and role in the firm and bring different experience and complement each other very, very well.

00;03;54;13 - 00;04;05;00

DP

That's wonderful for our listeners. Sean and I were talking before we got rolling here, and I used to work in Baltimore, Maryland for Zeiger Sneed. I guess I'm wondering if you ever ran into them.

00;04;05;06 - 00;04;11;06

JH

I haven't met them in person, but we still run into them every once in a while, competing on a project.

00;04;11;11 - 00;04;19;27

DP

I'm sure you do. I'm not sure how involved they both are in the firm at this point, but they certainly did something really wonderful in Baltimore.

00;04;19;29 - 00;04;37;14

JH

They have and they've won a lot of awards in the area. And why I plan to my roots here in Baltimore was because the design and architectural community is strong, thriving. It's a livable city. And I really love the passion that everybody brings to their projects and profession here.

00;04;37;17 - 00;04;45;04

DP

That's great to hear. So tell me a little bit about yourself. How long have you been practicing and what's your role in the office as a partner?

00;04;45;06 - 00;05;38;09

JH

Sure. So I graduated from Cincinnati in ‘91. That was probably not the best time to be graduating and looking for a job, but I struggled through those first few years gaining experience. And so when we started JP2, as I mentioned, as I think it's always been my dream to start a job. So a lot of the business planning, the oversight of the firm in general, my background is probably more design delivery heavy.

But I think one of the beauties of the practice we've established is that we have an amazing group here that all overlaps and has a terrific sense of projects and project management and design from beginning to end. So I will take on some master planning and some design roles, but I can tell you that my partners can draw circles around me.

00;05;38;11 - 00;06;22;00

DP

We talk a lot about this with our guests, our university experience. So you go to college and you learn about design, you know, structures and HVAC equipment and all those kinds of things. But you never really think about everybody's going to be good at something different, right? Or they're going to be good at a few things and then somebody else is going to be.

And so you really need that if you're going to have a partner, if you're not going to run your own office, you're going to have partners. It's really important to overlap. It's important to complement one another and then allow those people to do a good job in the areas that they're good at. Right? It's not something that anybody ever discusses in college. You get out and it becomes reality where you got to run a business and make money.

00;06;22;02 - 00;06;50;20

JH

Exactly. It's amazing how many hats and projects I may touch in a day, but having a team around us and having colleagues that I work closely with allows that overlap. What it does is it extends those initial ideas of a project and allows the whole team to be on board throughout the process so they know the vision, they know what we're executing when you go from a design concept to actually detailing a project and how to deliver it.

00;06;50;26 - 00;06;58;09

DP

So true. Okay, so let's dig in here and talk about Marketplace at Fell's Point. So how did you guys get that project?

00;06;58;11 - 00;07;58;06

JH

It's a wonderful, wonderful history. And we actually made contact through an ex RTKL employee who was in the landscape department and he got out of the design profession and started purchasing and renovating a lot of row houses here and Fell’s Point and Canton area. And he and another developer, David Holmes, the person I was speaking about is Dan Winter, and the two of them started realizing that they had properties near each other.

So that became a genesis amongst the two of them. They were pursuing a strategy of basically a garage with office above it, and it was seven or eight stories tall and the community fought them all along the way. And Dan, knowing that we had just started our practice and respecting our design skills, said, Hey, can you guys give me some advice?

Take a look at this. What should we do here? That was how we landed the project.

00;07;58;06 - 00;08;00;07

DP

And essentially the function changed?

00;08;00;09 - 00;08;51;22

JH

There you go. So I'd say I'm probably a frustrated developer because I love to look at something and say what belongs, what fits, and also how do you make it financially viable? The project, as initially conceived, wasn't penciling out from a financial standpoint, and it was a lesson of less is more. Why fight what should be here, which is a dense, residential neighborhood of two and a half, three and a half story tall row houses.

There are lot lines throughout, so we being old school, put pencil to trace and started sketching some ideas and they started to look at it and lo and behold, they started to peak their interest. They started to put some performance together and look at it and said, You know what, this works. That was a big change.

00;08;51;25 - 00;08;55;09

DP

Yeah. So the architect sold the developer in a way.

00;08;55;10 - 00;08;59;07

JH

Exactly. We brought an idea.

00;08;59;10 - 00;09;06;17

DP

Yeah, you brought in a great idea. So give us a little history of the location because you guys use some of the existing buildings, correct?

00;09;06;19 - 00;09;59;11

JH

That is correct. The site is fantastic. As you know, Fell’s Point is rooted in history going all the way back to the late 1700s and early 1800s. It's a waterfront community here on the harbor in Baltimore. And is known for shipbuilding sales, it's a port. So the establishments, bars, restaurants, all of that catered to folks who were in that industry.

Fell’s Point at the time, which would have been 2008, was what you probably hear about Baltimore, boarded up windows and storefronts. And a lot of these properties were not worth much. And so as Dave Holmes and Dan Winter were purchasing these, they had to have some kind of hope and vision that they could transform them.

00;09;59;13 - 00;10;05;18

DP

Okay. So tell me a little bit about the scope of the project and the client's programmatic requirements.

00;10;05;20 - 00;11;05;28

JH

Sure. The scope of the project, the buildings have historic storefronts, even though many of them, think about it is the 1800s, they were not historic, they were new. And so over time, they go through a transformation that was anything but historically sensitive. So one of the missions was to continue to keep the character of Broadway, of Fell's Point through those storefronts and set back the buildings mass so that it was not present or felt when you're walking along the sidewalk.

I'm starting from a massing standpoint to tell you about the program because the storefronts then would still be, and there's about 28,000 square feet of retail and and entertainment. And then there are in total, there are two blocks. There's one on the east side and one on the west side of Broadway. And they total 160 apartment units.

00;11;06;00 - 00;11;16;17

DP

I'm trying to picture what this looks like because we got some existing buildings down here and we do have some new architecture as well in plan form. What am I looking at?

00;11;16;20 - 00;11;59;23

JH

You're looking at like an amoeba. Unfortunately, apartment units don't like that shape, but the West block touches all four streets around it, so it almost has tentacles and reaches out. So along this storefront were basically 2 to 3 stories and we were able to do that and then set back. But the setback piece is more of a U-shape so that you didn't again have a mass of a building just lurking behind these.

You only had the ends of the U-shape. A lot of the use of brick and color and materials in that area was so that they felt like they fit in.

00;11;59;25 - 00;12;03;02

DP

So the retail space, is that all new architecture?

00;12;03;04 - 00;12;52;10

JH

It is. So the whole block has new storefronts, but they're restored. So they're restored to the historic significance. We went through many photos and did a lot of research. The Historical Society was incredibly helpful in that front. The depth of this storefront or what was behind those is new. When you go out into, say, the suburbs, you're used to a concrete podium with, say, four levels of stick frame construction above it.

That is essentially what we did in this project. We have a concrete podium that separates the retail use from the residential use above that's needed by code, but also makes laying out the apartments above much more easily.

00;12;52;12 - 00;13;03;09

DP

So let's talk a little bit about stylistic choice for the new architecture and then what you guys ultimately did to restore to the exteriors of some of these existing buildings.

00;13;03;12 - 00;14;21;23

JH

Terrific. Yeah, we had a good dialog with the Historic Preservation group here. One of the concerns is always when you create new are you competing or you're trying to match the historic facades. And we literally had on the west block two missing teeth that were non contributing and it was obvious they were not contributing to the historic fabric of the community.

So our challenge was how to blend in. And this is where Glen-Gery was incredibly helpful with the brick choices, the brick style and how we detailed it. So we went with a more simplistic detailing of soldiers and roll locks than a brick facade on both of the missing infill pieces. So you had a character that was still there but not trying to replicate, and that's how we worked on the Broadway facades. Around the perimeter, if you want to look, there are two alleys on either end of the buildings. Those are brick buildings. They fit in, but took the same approach where we use bricks so that it became part of the urban fabric without trying to mimic the historic aspects of the existing.

00;14;21;26 - 00;14;28;02

DP

Did Glen-Gery have bricks that matched the original bricks from that long ago? From the 1800s?

00;14;28;05 - 00;14;55;02

JH

No. But we had some that fit really well. There were molded bricks. We use the Catawba, which is a Cushwa line on the Broadway faces. In the back, we used 56-DD brick, which is more of a monolithic brick. So that one, it's still molded, but it was more uniform. So you did have a little bit more of a contemporary feel or use to the brick than you do on the historic facades.

00;14;55;05 - 00;15;10;13

DP

Interesting. So back to the planning process for a second. So you guys, you sit down, you do some sketches, you got some ideas, you talk with the developers, and then when did it turn into a project and how long did it take from beginning to end?

00;15;10;20 - 00;17;56;28

JH

How long do you have? I think the process started in early 2008. We started our firm in 2006, so this was a significant project for us. We worked very close with Dan Winter and Dave Holmes through this process. They had been working with the neighborhood groups, listening then what they want. So we took these bum wad sketches and floor plans and stuff like that, and then it started to become real.

And then we could start to put together some imagery of the facades. We could start to look at how we were affecting adjacent neighbors and start showing them a reduced massing than what was proposed before we started this project. And that started to win over some converts. And so that process and going through, which you may have heard in this area called CHAP, which is the Commission for Historic and Architectural Preservation, was that historic piece probably took a year.

So we were still in a design process for a good year after we started and then I'd say about another nine months to a year after that, we got into construction documents again, history, right? So now we're into 2009 and we all know what happened in that era with the real estate market. So we had finished construction documents as a recession, The Great Recession was happening and the thought process was, let's file for permit. So again, I'm glad you're sitting because it is a long story. I'll try to keep it somewhat short and there are details to fill in that are fascinating. We did file in 2009. It sat for years for a number of reasons. For one, they couldn't get financing.

You can imagine paying 2006, 2007 prices and then suddenly the bank takes a look at your property and says it's worth a 10th of that so you don't have equity in the project anymore. And so they were running up against hurdles for this. So the project sat and they were then looking for partners that could help with the project.

So enter Klein Enterprises and Dolben is out of Boston, Massachusetts, and Kline is a local developer here. So they came in and basically took over the project with a little bit of revisioning. So it was probably two years after that. And the construction wound up, I think it was 2012, 2013 when we finally had substantial completion.

So you're looking at four or five years.

00;17;57;00 - 00;18;05;18

DP

Yeah, that's a long time to hang with the project, especially when you're done with the drawings and then everything just sits here like, what am I going to do now?

00;18;05;19 - 00;18;44;19

JH

Right, right. It was interesting. I learned a lot about developers along the way as we took the plans, took the idea to a number of other developers to partner with. Some of them didn't want anything to do with the retail piece. They love the residential, but they don't do retail. And I think that's where this partnership and where it landed was a great fit.

Dolben has tens of thousands of apartment units. Klein, there's a lot of mixed use, and so they were not afraid and they know the neighborhood and started to have a vision for what they could create in terms of an atmosphere and a buzz in that part of Fell's Point.

00;18;44;22 - 00;18;57;22

DP

So back to construction. So you're under construction. Any unique construction details that you guys came across using brick or anything else, especially with all these existing buildings out there, right?

00;18;57;25 - 00;20;23;26

JH

It was probably one of the most challenging projects you’re going to look at. I'm sure you've talked to a number of architects that when you do an urban infill, it's a challenge. We touch over a dozen property lines on the west block and over a dozen on the east block. Each one of those neighbors needed to be notified.

You had to figure out how you're going to close the gap on those property lines, how you're going to flash onto other people's party walls. Essentially, as boring as the back of the place was. We had wall sections at every property line because each one was a unique condition on the west block, where we have almost 100 apartment units, we also have an underground parking garage.

So we have about 60 parking spaces underground and all the initial readings or that we have a water table. So here you're creating a bathtub, you've got a water table. And I think it was Hurricane Sandy that had a storm surge that pushed water up to that block as well. So now you're thinking, okay, how do I prevent water from above and below from filling this garage?

And so we had to create under-floor and remediation for the ground water as it swells and being able to pump it, that water table rises and lowers. So when it rises, you're pumping 24/7.

00;20;23;28 - 00;20;31;06

DP

So how did you guys resolve this? You're still pumping water out of there. When the groundwater rises up and it's like a bathtub that you built.

00;20;31;11 - 00;20;33;07

JH

Exactly. You are.

00;20;33;09 - 00;20;35;17

DP

Unbelievable. That's expensive.

00;20;35;19 - 00;21;07;07

JH

It's expensive. And again, you can imagine, I mean, now we're 12 feet below all the properties around us as well. So there was an incredible amount of documentation of the properties adjacent to this project. To be sure these 1800 structures don't settle, don't crack, and then making deals with each one of them that if that happens, we'll repair it.

So there was an incredible amount of liability on the contractor owner and architects and engineers as well.

00;21;07;09 - 00;21;30;06

DP

Wow. You guys have a real constitution. I don't think I could handle that. Just way too much responsibility. You know, interestingly, I did some work with Habitat for Humanity when we lived in Baltimore. And I remember these brick buildings, these row homes, they were crumbling. When the brick is that old, did you guys run into issues like that?

00;21;30;09 - 00;22;27;06

JH

We did. The interesting part of this was finding a right contractor that could deal with this. You weren't looking at a suburban stick frame guy. They'd look at it and were scared. So we needed somebody that had some chops. We ended up with Lendlease and they did a terrific job supporting the historic facades during this time. And so we had every ten feet, a steel column going up the front of the facade and then being supported laterally with other beams and huge cement blocks to keep them from falling as things were excavated behind it.

So it was painstakingly slow at that point. But then also the timing had to be right in order to get the concrete slab there to then reinforce and support those walls and to tie them back in to the concrete slab so that they wouldn't, you know, fall out or fall in.

00;22;27;08 - 00;22;52;19

DP

It takes a special kind of person and firm to do this kind of work, to be involved in that stuff. Architects do all different kinds of jobs, right? And this is one of them working with historic architecture. So what about drawings? What kind of drawings did you guys put together for the architecture? Was it 2D, 3D, lots of details? And then of course, you had to hire engineers and do drawings for the existing condition work.

00;22;52;25 - 00;24;05;19

JH

That's correct. And early on there's a bit of surveying that you do. I would say that it was also incredible working with a civil engineer, because if you think each one of these properties also has utilities coming in and out of it, making sure that we're staying away from all of these. So the underground piece of this became incredibly complicated. The three dimensional aspects, my partners and I are not old, but, you know, we still do a lot by hand. So a lot of the three dimensional stuff in order to get information out there quickly was by hand a lot of two dimensional facades around the project to see how it would relate to the adjacent properties. A lot of wall sections. This would have been wonderful if we had the technology today and, you know, have a drone or something scan the existing conditions in three dimensions. There was a lot of back and forth. Fortunately, it's only a half a mile from our office, so it could be down there in a heartbeat as soon as they discovered things during construction. And that was a vital way of solving some of the problems that came up because so many of them you can't anticipate.

You can only suggest a solution until things get uncovered.

00;24;05;21 - 00;24;14;11

DP

Yeah. Instead of getting in your car and driving a half hour, you walk right out onto the street and walk down the street and you can take a look at whatever challenge you face that day.

00;24;14;14 - 00;24;15;08

JH

That's correct.

00;24;15;15 - 00;24;23;27

DP

So did your team learn anything interesting through the design and construction process? That's a loaded question.

00;24;24;00 - 00;26;07;16

JH

It is. And I'd say, you know, even just this discussion, you can see I mean, all of these things are something new. And I think that's the beauty of the profession. As you mentioned, you work on so many different types of projects. And what I love about how we work as a firm that we don't have these vertical silos, we work across different typologies and bring that knowledge base to each project, which lends itself to something like this where you have mixed uses.

So the retail spaces on the ground floor needed to have If I'm going to put a kitchen in there for a restaurant, I need exhaust. That's got to go up through a couple stories of apartment buildings. So that kind of coordination, anticipating the needs of each component so that each of them stood alone and was able to be successful on their own rather than handicapping one.

One of the things we were not able to do is create what would be normal for a retailer today in terms of ceiling heights. We had to hit the second floor windows of the facades. So sometimes that meant that a retailer could only have maybe a nine or ten foot ceiling in there in order to get all the ductwork and lighting and everything else below the concrete slab.

I'd say what we really learned was from a design perspective, how to work with the community. I think that was the big success here, that we were able to revitalize an area of Fell's Point, bring life to it, bring housing for people, for more activity, and to do that successfully where the community was extremely happy with the end result.

00;26;07;18 - 00;26;24;04

DP

So I'm curious, some of these brick buildings, the existing brick buildings, how did you guys handle the new interior wall systems insulation and how did that work and did that decrease then the interior space? Because some of these buildings are probably pretty narrow.

00;26;24;09 - 00;27;18;17

JH

That's correct. Working with a different module that you're basically given was different and you ended up with almost a wall within a wall in order to get the proper insulation and which made for some unique conditions out the windows where you notice how, you know, like suddenly you've got a big inset that's about a foot and a half to the window.

There were some cases where we had to bump up the ceiling or bump down the floor a little bit where some of these windows were as as much as we tried. There were some things we just couldn't change. So this section is what was fascinating on these projects in that front facade along Broadway, we had to ramp down a couple of feet in order to get to the level that was needed for those apartments.

So it was both in section and then also horizontally in terms of laying out apartments that utilize the existing facades.

00;27;18;19 - 00;27;30;22

DP

Yeah, a lot of site specific challenging conditions. I can see why being out there, being in person was really important because every building's going to be just a little bit different.

00;27;30;29 - 00;27;31;28

JH

That's correct.

00;27;32;00 - 00;27;46;16

DP

Before you go, John, you've been an architect for some time. Based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for either your younger self or maybe young architects coming up in the profession?

00;27;46;18 - 000;29;02;11

JH

I'd like to just call it dumb luck, but I was really, really fortunate to land in a dream job in the late eighties, and it set me on a course for a career that was, this has been phenomenal and a journey. Going to the University of Cincinnati, having a co-op program was fascinating. Your third year, you're going to work for a firm for three months and nobody wanted to work in New York City.

And so I said, I'll go. And that firm happened to be KPF. So I cut my teeth in college with six months working at Kohn Pedersen Fox working on international high rise structures. That set me on a course that took me from there to Disney Development to the West Coast, then back to Ohio before I even graduated college. So I tell that story because that's my advice to folks.

Go for it. Don't be shy. Try to find a path that speaks to your heart. And you know, it's one of the beautiful things about the United States is you can travel, you can go to another location where the jobs are, where you want to be, where you fit.

00;29;02;18 - 00;29;07;04

DP

Well, that's a really interesting point. I think we forget that. I certainly do.

00;29;07;06 - 00;29;11;03

JH

Got a little international connection that reminds me of it quite a bit.

00;29;11;05 - 00;29;18;18

DP

So, John, it's been great to have you here today. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about JP2 Architects and yourself?

00;29;18;21 - 00;29;37;17

JH

Well, we are active on social media, so your normal spots of LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Our website is JP2architects.com. And as with a lot of folks, we're looking for people to grow with us. It's an exciting time right now.

00;29;37;20 - 00;29;41;11

DP

That's a great little plug. Awesome, man. Well, it's been great to meet you, John.

00;29;41;17 - 00;29;51;29

JH

I'll do one more plug. Part of this project is an isolated corner of the 600 block of Broadway, and that is where Brickworks is located.

00;29;52;00 - 00;29;53;04

DP

Get out of town.

00;29;53;07 - 00;30;27;18

JH

So that is one of the main reasons we wanted to use this project, not only because of the incredible history and everything else associated with it. We thought for sure that corner was made for a Starbucks, a first floor and a second floor seating. But that is not going to happen in Fell's Point. Fell's Point is about local businesses, local restaurants and Brickworks Studio there is phenomenal. I love it. It is such a great fit and we love having them a resource that's just down the street.

00;30;27;25 - 00;30;52;07

DP

Yeah, it's kind of perfect.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;12

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

00;00;05;14 - 00;00;30;13

Peter Miller (PM)

Gentrification is always an issue in New York City, and trying to deal with that in a responsible way as an architect is something we often think about. Some people, you know, have a problem with larger buildings, but we're not talking about towers. The most bulk is on avenue is where I think people are a bit more comfortable. And because we're bringing residential into the neighborhood, that's usually something that's appreciated.

Everyone in New York believes rents and housing prices are too high and we need a greater supply.

00;00;30;18 - 00;01;00;18

DP

This is my guest, Peter Miller. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault we highlight Peter's project 625 Rogers Avenue. 625 Rogers Avenue is the site for a new mixed-use building with a primary use of residential ground level, commercial and community facility uses with a below grade enclosed parking lot. The architectural design for the building divides the overall mass into two distinct volumes a lower and upper.

The lower is a rectilinear form that relates to historic buildings in the area. This volume is meant to create a more contextual streetscape and a friendly residential feel. In contrast, the higher recessed form is articulated to relate to the new character of the neighborhood. It steps back and recedes as it rises, making it more private and less visible from the street.

The lower form is brick, the upper is stucco, the lower is dark, the upper is light. A side yard is included along the south elevation for more daylight glass and a restaurant terrace. Hi, I'm Doug Pat, and this is Design Vault. Peter Miller is a partner of Palatte Architecture, which he co-founded in 2010. He holds a B.S. in architecture from Washington University in Saint Louis and a master's degree from the Graduate School of Architecture, Planning and Preservation at Columbia University.

Peter is a director of the Executive Board of AIA New York and a Design for Freedom Working Group member. He's a registered architect with 20 plus years of experience focusing on designing and implementing innovative building systems and components. His notable projects include Grace Farms in New Canaan, Connecticut, The National World War Two Museum in New Orleans, The Revitalization of Forest Park in Saint Louis, the Confluence Masterplan of Missouri and NYC HPD's Small Lots Development Program.

Peter's work has won many design awards, including several AIA National Honors Awards and the Mies Crown Hall America's Prize. His work has been featured in Architectural Record, Elder Corps, Fast Company, The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times. He's originally from rural Indiana and is from a family of craftsmen, engineers, entrepreneurs and tinkerers. He treasures the creative process of turning ideas into physical form.

So welcome, Peter. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Palatte Architecture in New York City. So it was founded in 2010. Where are you guys located In the city. What's the size of the firm? What type of work do you do?

00;03;17;08 - 00;04;01;09

PM

So we're located in the, I like to say the Union Square area. We're on 16th Street and Sixth Avenue. We are 11 people in total, three partners and eight architects. The work that we primarily do is residential in nature. It spans from multifamily, residential in the mid-sized range. 50 dwellings is probably an average size for a mid-sized development to custom residential townhouse projects within the city and custom houses ground up outside of the city.

In addition to the residential work, we do a variety of other things early education is a big part of what we do. Preschools, daycares, things of that nature, and some other commercial projects spanning from retail to restaurants.

00;04;01;12 - 00;04;02;08

DP

How's business?

00;04;02;14 - 00;04;30;04

PM

Businesses up and down. You know, when you own your own business, it's always a rollercoaster. I would say we're busy. There is a lot of work being constructed right now. We have a lot of projects in construction. Design work continues to come in. It's not quite as strong as it was a year ago. I think interest rates are affecting particularly the custom residential side of our business, but the multifamily business continues to be booming. We stay busy.

00;04;30;07 - 00;04;31;28

DP

Has the firm grown?

00;04;32;01 - 00;04;52;08

PM

We try very hard to stay the same size. We have a team of people that we really like and we trust them. And I think a big part of who we are is the consistency within our office. So when times get slow, we find ways to keep those people productive, and when times are busy, they go the extra mile for us and they put in the extra work.

00;04;52;10 - 00;04;59;17

DP

So tell us a little bit about yourself. So how long have you been practicing and what's your role in the office as a partner?

00;04;59;20 - 00;06;10;10

PM

So I've been practicing since early 2000s. I attended Columbia University for graduate school and finished in 2006 and spent a better part of a decade working for well-known firms, doing international projects, particularly of like museums and high end residential. We formed Palatte Architecture. I had two business partners, John Sunwoo and Jeff Wanders, and then we met at Columbia in studio, and there was always an idea that we wanted to work together.

It took a while. We had our own careers in other firms for a while and came back together and formed the office in 2010, but it took a little while to get off the ground. Within the firm my role is partner. We are fairly equal. It's one of our core elements at Pallet architecture, the three partners. We have complementary skills, but we all can perform anything within the office.

Projects are organized where each partner is in charge of one, and then beyond that, we have some other roles. One of my roles is sort of business management and human resources, so I do that in addition to all the design work, the construction administration.

00;06;10;09 - 00;06;15;17

DP

All right, so let's dig in here and talk about 625 Rogers Avenue. So how did your office get the project?

00;06;15;19 - 00;07;07;25

PM

So this is with a client we've been working with for a while is a little bit of background on Palette Architecture. We really started this firm fairly early in our careers. As such, we didn't have as many connections. A lot of things started out as they do in sort of those classic ideas of architecture. You're doing somebody's bathroom, somebody's kitchen, and then you do a good job and you end up doing their house and eventually you work your way up.

So it's been that way. We met this client when we were doing a lot of houses and they were looking to turn a house into a residential building, a multifamily four. So it was to turn like a big townhouse into a four family. And so we did that project for them and we built a relationship that's led to, I think, ten different projects with them now.

And this is the latest one. And so they've grown in scale each time. And this one's, I think, 25 units.

00;07;08;02 - 00;07;14;29

DP

The project is considerable size. So give us a little history of the location and what was there prior.

00;07;15;01 - 00;08;17;11

PM

This is in the Prospect Lefferts neighborhood of Brooklyn. So that is on the northeast side of Prospect Park. We've done a number of projects in this area. The site before this was largely vacant, there was a couple of dilapidated houses in that area. It was mostly a small demo and clearing the project is near the corner of Parkside and Rogers Avenue.

Rogers is the major thoroughfare through the Prospect Lefferts neighborhood. We do not have the actual corner lot, which was kind of an unusual situation in terms of design. There is a small brick building on the corner that has a bodega in the ground floor. Adjacent to them there was an easement in place for them to have access to the back of their building.

So we have a minimum of eight feet that we needed to keep open between us in their building. So we ended up with a building that had two facades, even though it wasn't on a corner because of the easement.

00;08;17;13 - 00;08;22;24

DP

So tell me a little bit about the scope of the project and the client's programmatic requirements.

00;08;22;26 - 00;09;08;03

PM

So the scope of the project is largely multi-family residential. As with any case, working with a developer, you know, it's maximizing units and floor area for the residential use. However, because it's on Rogers Avenue, which is a major thoroughfare, there was an overlay for commercial. So there was a desire to try to put as much commercial in here as was viable in terms of sales. On the ground floor we have two commercial spaces. One is designed to be a restaurant and the other is a bit more flexible, likely to be more of a retail establishment. And then in addition, there is a small community facility space on the ground floor. There is a lobby also on the ground floor that leads up to the residential spaces. And there is five floors, two through six, that is residential apartments above.

00;09;08;05 - 00;09;12;03

DP

So building plan. Could you describe that on the site shape?

00;09;12;05 - 00;09;27;04

PM

Yeah. So it's L-shaped, I would say, with one of the major legs being across Rogers Avenue and the other leg running parallel to this easement that I mentioned before. And then there is a courtyard in the back portion of the L.

00;09;27;06 - 00;09;33;10

DP

So project restrictions, zoning codes. What were you guys dealing with out there other than the easement?

00;09;33;12 - 00;10;21;05

PM

One of the things that has generated a lot of our work in Prospect Lefferts Gardens is there was a zoning change probably about a decade ago that allowed for larger bulk in the area. So a lot of the buildings along Rogers Avenue and in other parts of the neighborhood, are suddenly getting a lot bigger. And in some cases you're seeing full tear downs.

In some cases you're seeing vertical enlargements. In our case, it was important to have this contextual approach that some of the smaller buildings were going to remain for decades and others were going to instantly become larger. So we wanted something the span between those. That meant having a form that followed the context of those smaller buildings. So it's larger up to a setback, and then it sets back at the height of our neighbors and then becomes something a bit more fanciful above.

00;10;21;07 - 00;10;28;09

DP

I'm thinking about the neighbors, right? And I'm thinking about the neighborhood. And you said these buildings are getting bigger. Is that driving anybody crazy?

00;10;28;12 - 00;11;09;05

PM

Oh, certainly. It's a mixed neighborhood and gentrification is always an issue in New York City. And trying to deal with that in a responsible way as an architect is something we often think about. And it's certainly an issue in this neighborhood as well. Some people, you know, have a problem with larger buildings, but we're not talking about towers.

The bulk has risen from like four stories to six or seven stories. So it's a bit bigger. The most bulk is on avenues where I think people are a bit more comfortable with it. And because we're bringing residential into the neighborhood, that's usually something that's appreciated. Everyone in New York believes rents and housing prices are too high and that we need a greater supply. So there isn't a lot of tension, I think, on that.

00;11;09;08 - 00;11;17;22

DP

What is the city do in terms of review, esthetics and building height? Is there an open meeting and you guys are just about to go into construction?

00;11;17;29 - 00;13;21;19

PM

We are in construction. We've been in construction for almost a year. The superstructure is in place. A lot of the interiors are framed out and the building is fully enclosed. At this point, we are about to clad the exterior, so we're pretty far along in construction in terms of the city's take on the shape and the zoning of the building.

New York City is fairly as of right city. If you are following the zoning code, zoning text in the building code, you can largely do what you want, but it is fairly constrained, especially if you want to maximize the floor area, maximize the amount of units. So you often find yourself into these rectilinear envelopes if you're trying to maximize, but there's room for play.

And I think that's really what we were trying to do with this lower mass, is to build that out, make it very tight and taut and follow the context of the neighborhood. It was a bit more challenging on our site because we also had to deal with this easement. And so the easement is a whole swath of the property that you can't use.

You're probably aware, but in New York City, the amount that you can build is a factor of the lot size. So the larger the lot, the more you can build. However, if you're not allowed to build on a portion of the lot, then that same amount of area has to fit into a smaller envelope and so it gets tight.

That's kind of what led to the L-shape, is that we couldn't simply do it in a bar building across the main avenue. We had to put some sort of extension on to the back. But we were fortunate that that extension could follow the easement. So we get a lot of natural light and air from that. It's not legal light and air, which I think people from New York will be familiar with, which is something is a requirement for all apartments.

But we were able to get that through our courtyard and through our rear exposure. And so this was really like bonus windows and bonus light and air that we could get because of the easement. In addition, this corner building is quite a bit smaller, so we are afforded a lot of wonderful views over the top of it.

00;13;21;21 - 00;13;37;24

DP

So tell us a little bit about the design process. I just typed in 625 Rogers Avenue and there's a nice website that comes up and there are some great three dimensional images there that tell me a little bit about the design process. How does that work in your office and how long did it take for this project?

00;13;37;27 - 00;14;19;02

PM

The design process is usually quite rapid in New York City. I would say the actual meat of the process, which is kind of something that a lot of times you learn in school, you spend some time, you make some models, try out a few renderings and you come up with something and then you say, Well, we're not going to do this part.

Let's change it like that. That part of like coming to a form and a floor plan was probably an 8 to 10 week process. And then, of course, there's many stages after that coordinating with structure and mechanical and doing all the fine details and then that sort of thing, Then that's probably another couple of months.

00;14;19;04 - 00;14;21;21

DP

So were the clients excited about the project?

00;14;21;23 - 00;16;41;07

PM

Yes, they do value design a lot and so they were quite excited about it. I think there was always a question of how were we going to deal with this easement? And I think they were very excited about this idea of this lower box that is contextual. We weren't formally contextual. I think that's also probably important to mention.

It is a black brick, so it's not your traditional New York red brick or yellow brick that you might find in there. It is a black brick, so it is meant to pop a bit. What was important to us as a firm was to make something that was formally contextual, didn't look bigger than the neighbors didn't look imposing.

We're not interested in a building that like sticks out like a sore thumb. I think a lot of architects think that you need to make something flashy in order to be noticed, and then for people to come and want you to design another flashy thing that wasn't necessarily what we were after. We wanted something that had a calm facade to it and felt a bit like the neighborhood.

But this isn't the early 1900s, like the context was built in, so we can't do exactly that. So we were looking for something that was formally similar but materially different. And so we went with this black brick along the lower volume. And then of course we had more area to use and we had to put it somewhere. So we set it back and we gave it more articulation.

It's a bit of push and pull of rectangular volumes above, but it's a very light color and the idea was always to be set back enough to where it wasn't initially visible. It was more of a second look sort of thing that when you see the building, you're like, Oh, that feels like the size of other buildings in the neighborhood.

And then when you look a second time, you’re like actually it is not. And what's going on up above is really articulated and interesting. And why did they do this sort of thing? And the reason why we did a lot of that on the upper volume was to create outdoor spaces. This was a project that was conceived during the pandemic and then finalized throughout that process.

There was a lot of interest in our office about making outdoor spaces, particularly private outdoor spaces, beyond the size of balconies, spaces that were more of room size so that you could actually spend time outside with others and you could work outside when the weather is good. So a lot of the articulation on this upper volume was about trying to create private outdoor spaces for each of the interior units.

00;16;41;10 - 00;16;45;07

DP

So were there any unique construction details throughout the project?

00;16;45;09 - 00;18;20;15

PM

Certainly. And we are talking about brick, I'm sure, today. So I think that has a lot to do with it. We've been finding that thin brick has been really advantageous to us throughout the process. New York City is all about every inch. Every inch matters. Real estate agents will tell you that. So the thin brick does afford us a thinner wall thickness, which allows every unit to be a little bit bigger, the sales area to be a little bit bigger.

So that's something we'd like to do. But what we found great about the true brick system, which is what we used, is that it's a mechanically fastened thin brick which affords us new types of details. When you see the classical full brick, you can do corbelling, you can have some bricks, project out from others to create shadow lines and other types of articulation, which wasn't initially available in thin brick because everything just had to sit inside of a tray and anything that projected out would become too much of a load and either pop out.

And so what we were really excited about with this thin brick system, the true bricks, is that we could have a variety of brick depths while still saving these inches. And so there was a lot of thought about that in terms of details. We used different depths of thin brick to articulate slab edges and also areas of pattern and texture.

So within this brick volume on the base, there are strip windows. In between each strip window. We do have a textured brick that creates a bit of interest. It creates a patterned shadow on the facade, and then that is all captured in between these sort of expressed slab edges.

00;18;20;17 - 00;18;24;29

DP

So could you go through a wall section for me? Exterior to interior.?

00;18;25;01 -  00;19;29;12

PM

So we have on the exterior a variety of different depth thin bricks that snap into the true bricks tray system, which is sort of like a channel shaped system that is then attached into a kingspan karrier panel. So this is sort of an all in one cladding waterproofing insulation panel. I believe it's an XPS insulation that's wrapped in a metal panel.

And these are tongue and groove panels that come together and they're flashed at their tongue and groove. So the metal panel on the outside acts as waterproofing, especially when the joints are flashed. Then there is this completely separated other metal panel on the interior, the separated by this XPS installations that provides your insulation and then that interior panel allows you to attach to the studs.

So there's no need for sheathing or waterproofing layer or another set of insulation. It's all in one. So we have that karrier panel and then that is attached to the stud. And then on the interior of the stud we have our finishes, which is general sheetrock.

00;19;29;14 - 00;19;33;06

DP

And the installation values of the walls?

00;19;33;06 - 00;19;36;24

PM

Two and a half inches. So I'm guessing that's probably about R 14.

00;19;36;26 - 00;19;46;17

DP

That sounds really interesting. And using thin brick, I mean it's a veneer like anything anyway, so whether or not you're going to use something that's three and 5/8 thick or it's a half inch thick, it’s still a veneer.

00;19;48;19 - 00;20;22;13

PM

100% agree. We live in a world now where energy code and sustainability issues are vitally important. And for the most part we know Brick classically is like a veneer as a cladding and a structural system, but it's just really not done that way anymore. It's mostly a cladding system now because we need to have this rain screen where where air can move behind the facade, and we need continuous insulation.

So if it's going to be mostly a veneer. Now I'm a fan of the thin brick systems because it saves you that extra couple of inches.

00;20;22;16 - 00;20;40;15

DP

Yeah, I totally agree. And you touched on this a little bit. Just back to the esthetics. So tell us about the style choice. The building is contemporary. When I read about the architecture you guys talked about as statically trying to work with the existing architecture in the neighborhood. Tell us a little bit about that.

00;20;40;17 - 00;22;28;22

PM

I think it's largely about scale. So as I mentioned, we are trying to create a datum that matches with the neighbor. In terms of height. I think the concern back to what you mentioned before is that people are going to feel like their neighborhood is growing rapidly and that it feels much more urban than it used to. And so that was really important to us in terms of context to make the scale feel as if they had always known this building.

Beyond that, we felt that Brick was an important choice. There's a lot of brick in the neighborhood. We felt that other materials might feel too distinct from the rest of the context. I don't think it's important that we try to look exactly like the neighbors because we're in a different era, a different technology. But there needs to be some tie to the way it is.

And it was also sort of important to us that the windows had some sort of gridded logic to it to match the neighbors. So there's a nod to that. Beyond that, we felt freedom to go a different way. And so we relied on sort of a color choice as one way to do that, to create this darker volume on the lower part would sort of emphasize the height of the building that it matched the others because it's so present in its darkness.

The other thing we liked about the darkness is that it made all the details a bit more subtle. It gave us a little more freedom to do things like these patterned bricks and these shadow lines that indicated that this was a newer building and that it has some innovative techniques and details to it. But wasn't flashy to the point of look at me and forget everyone else in the neighborhood.

00;22;28;25 - 00;22;39;02

DP

That's well explained. So when you guys did drawings for the architecture, for the construction process, all 2D, 2D and 3D, Revit, what are you guys working out?

00;22;39;02 - 00;23;05;06

PM

Yeah, well, Revit. Our office is 100% BIM. We are an office that was founded since 2010. So the partners, all the employees, we all grew up in this, so we're 100% BIM. We use Revit as our software. So everything is done in Revit from beginning to end. We found this really beneficial with some of our clients too, because we can get the visualizations a lot quicker and that just makes them feel comfortable.

00;23;05;08 - 00;23;16;07

DP

Yeah, clients love that. Yeah, for sure. So do you guys learn anything interesting through the design in what you're currently in construction process? Anything new for you as you've been working on the architecture?

00;23;16;09 - 00;24;17;03

PM

Well, let's see things that I would want to talk about. Usually the lessons are the things that like you didn't see coming or you feel like you could have control. I think one thing that we really learned on this project is moving to this Kingspan panel that I mentioned before is a new thing for our office. We're doing it on two projects or two simultaneously.

We knew a lot about the details going into it and we really believed in it and we love it, but our contractors were not familiar with it and so there was definitely a lot of lessons in how to communicate these details because a lot of them came in and were like, They see these new Legos for the first time and they're like, Oh, they must go together like this.

And then you arrive at a site and you say, No, actually you put that piece on wrong. It should be like this. There was a lot of back and forth and learning about how to communicate, when to come in in the process with somebody that hasn't used the technology before and really get them up to speed on it.

00;24;17;06 - 00;24;42;15

DP

That's funny, yeah, GCs love that when you walk out into the field and you tell them they're wrong. Yeah, sure. Before you go, Peter, you've been an architect for some time based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for your younger version of you, or maybe for some students or young architects that are just getting rolling?

00;24;42;17 - 00;25;03;01

PM

Well, that's a great question. It's easier for me to advise my earlier self than advise a generic architect in school, and I hope this advice applies for me. I was always an introverted sort of person. I come from a very conservative rural background and it took me a while to learn how to really speak my voice to people.

And I think in school there's this sense that your work is always out there for critique and that you should be careful about everything you do. I think I've learned over time that as long as you follow your own voice and your own beliefs, that those things will fall in place. And so I would advise myself, when I was younger, to not be concerned about whether or not your voice is going to land perfectly amongst your audience.

I think as long as you believe in it passionately and you talk about it strongly and you think about it all the time and you critique yourself, that that will lead to stronger work and it will lead to people wanting to see your work and interact with your work and make sure that it gets built in the way that you had always imagined it.

00;25;03;02 - 00;25;51;16

DP

Yeah, I think that's a really beautiful way of looking at things right that it will land in the right location. You're just responsible for finding your voice and expressing it as best you can within the framework of the work that you do. That's great. So, Peter, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about Palette Architecture and yourself?

00;25;51;19 - 00;26;13;22

PM

Well, certainly you can go to our website, PaletteArch.com, or they can follow us on Instagram also @PaletteArch.

00;26;13;24 - 00;26;29;26

DP

Well, Peter, thank you very much. It's been great to have you.

TRANSCRIPT 

00;00;02;24 - 00;00;32;01

MN

We looked at references of Eastern European architecture that felt familiar to them in terms of their context. Right? So, they grew up in small villages in southern Poland, where a lot of the typical houses there are just built out of clay brick, and the clay brick is exposed. All the mortar is exposed. So, it's all load bearing. One could look at that and say, well, that's really utilitarian and reflective of the structure of the house and, you know, where's the cladding? But to me I find that really interesting. I'm like, Oh, that is the cladding. And how do we kind of represent that in a new way?

00;00;33;00 - 00;01;01;25

DP

This is my guest, Mateusz Nowacki. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we’ll highlight his project, The H-House. The H-House is a residential home. The name is derived from the shape of the home, in plan, with the two story central spine and flanking single story legs clad in brick. The building uses standing seam metal, a variegated red brick and large modern black windows.

00;01;02;17 - 00;01;51;10

DP

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Today we're talking to Mateusz Nowacki, architect of the H-House in Manotick, Ontario. Mateusz is the founder of Everyday Studio. He received his Bachelor of Architecture from Carlton University and is Master of Architecture from the University of Toronto. He's been practicing architecture in Toronto for over eight years and is a licensed OAA member.

Everyday Studio’s work has been recognized in various architectural media, including Dezeen, Dwell, Ottawa Magazine and GOHB Housing Design. So, Mateusz, tell us a little bit about your firm, Everyday Studio. Where are you located? What's the size? What kind of work do you do?

00;01;51;17 - 00;03;02;00

MN

Yeah, so I founded Everyday Studio in 2019 after doing a few years of freelance work, small projects here and there. I got a kind of first larger residential project of around 3500 square feet. It felt like a good time to kind of describe the notion of a studio that looks at the practice of researching and thinking about different housing prototypes and using that first project as a case study for that.

And it was sort of a kind of deviation of the thesis that I worked on in 2015 that looked at housing prototypes as well. And so, the purpose of the studio was really to be a kind of collaborative space to work with clients or contractors or trades or researchers to kind of understand the possibilities that housing can take in alternative forms than the typical vernacular.

And those studies can be polemical or literal. So, in some cases they might just be research based or text based. In some cases, they might be full houses. So, the kind of idea being that this collaborative space is meant to bridge that gap between what's on paper and what's actually built. So, we're located in Toronto, my studio right now. So, it's usually just me, but sometimes I take on some seasonal stuff and we can kind of range from a 1 to 3-person office.

00;03;02;08 - 00;03;08;21

DP

Okay. So, tell me a little bit about how you got this current project. The H-House, and how you get work in general.

00;03;08;29 - 00;03;55;29

MN

Yeah. So as any startup office does, work comes from just networking and passing on of a name. So, one project turns into another project and into another project. So, this one came from a client that was interested in the property in Manotick, and started off as a conversation with that client. And I think he had seen some of the past projects that I had done in that area as well.

Interestingly enough, like in that rural area of Manotick outside of Ottawa, I did I think two other kind of full houses which started to breathe a little bit of attention and got this client’s attention. So, it started off as a conversation, which turned into a kind of concept design for the project and the initial sort of idea was to create a house that's better connected with the site and with nature than some of its neighbors. And I can kind of touch upon that in a little bit. But it started off from there.

00;03;56;05 - 00;04;05;00

DP

I mean, I think that's a great place to start. So, give me a little bit about the history of the place, the location, the town, the neighborhood, the buildings.

00;04;05;09 - 00;05;17;11

MN

Yeah, to that point, I think that's such an incredible and important part of the story of this project. So much of where we drive inspiration from is context. You know, where is this thing located and why is that important. In the case of this area, so, the town is called Manotick. It used to be flagged with a number of agricultural fields.

It was a really kind of agrarian farming village some 75 to 100 years ago. And it hasn't developed much since that. Manotick itself is a small little town, you know, with single family homes surrounded by kind of two rivers and the kind of external area of that, the sort of periphery is surrounded by still some farming fields and some kind of larger sort of developments for larger scale homes.

So, where this property is located, it's in a neighborhood that was developed called Rideau Forest. So, it's filled with these two-acre wooded lots. So, it's quite a heavily forested area. But interestingly enough, like there are still traces of the agrarian history of the site. So, when you kind of meander through some of the still available properties there, you can see some of the old kind of stone walls which divvied up different fields for different species of crop and things like that. So, it has this really inherent tied to farming and to that kind of nature of the site, even though it's evolved now to be this neighborhood of two acre properties in really large houses.

00;05;17;17 - 00;05;21;28

DP

Is it typical to have an architect in that neighborhood?

00;05;21;28 - 00;06;17;09

MN

I would say no. Most of the houses that are built in that neighborhood – they come from two kind of forms. They come from either the client looking to have a sort of full-fledged design build project where they contact their custom home builder, per se, or they come ready with a plan that they've found or purchased or something like that. So, although the houses are quite custom in nature, they follow a kind of similar and typical pattern. Whether these large houses with these kind of large wings and adaptations. And what happens is they get quite visually noisy, they have quite deep floor plates, and the amount of carving that has to sculpt the roof geometry becomes very intangible from a visual perspective. And the way that we wanted to approach this project was sort of an antithesis to that was how do we marry the former context in kind of a gray and sort of idea of this site and its history with the understanding of what the site is today and the kind of neighborhood context.

00;06;17;18 - 00;06;41;06

DP

It sounds to me like – I mean it's pretty challenging to get sophisticated clients and then in a neighborhood like that, to end up with a client that's really interested in making great architecture, right? And listening to an architect and working through these challenges. So that must have been a nice experience because it doesn't sound like you knew them per se, right? They found you through relationships that you had with other people.

00;06;41;06 - 00;08;00;24

MN

Well, well, wait Doug, there's more.

So, we definitely started the conversation, the cons design with this client and to kind of emphasize the story a bit further, he also contacted my father, who has a construction company in Manotick in Ottawa. So, he has basically a custom home building company. He's one of these custom home builders in this area. So, he wanted to kind of work with us together at one point or another in the project, the client kind of backed away, you know, had alternative plans and sort of wanted to go in a different direction, I think ended up moving to a different country.

And so, we had this relatively well-developed design that was at a good point, a good conceptual point, and we had already invested a lot in how to create this marriage between site history and current context of neighborhood and things like that. And so, because my father was attached to the project, he kind of inherited its journey and was like, you know, I still want to move forward with this project, whether it becomes the project that we just build as a sort of passion project and sell, or whether it becomes something that is tied to our living, then he’s game.

So, he inherited the journey of the project. And so, from then on, we started to really look at incorporating nuances of my father, my mother's kind of Eastern European history into the project and see how the context of Eastern Europe and the area that they had lived in could start to influence materiality and tectonics of the project as well. So, it had this kind of new layer that was thrust upon it afterwards.

00;08;01;04 - 00;08;04;01

DP

So, am I getting this right? This was ultimately for your mom and dad?

00;08;04;06 - 00;08;05;10

MN

Yeah. So, they live there now.

00;08;05;12 - 00;08;06;12

DP

Oh, that's so cool.

00;08;06;12 - 00;08;07;12

MN

Yeah, they live there now.

00;08;07;12 - 00;08;08;11

DP

Unbelievable.

00;08;08;11 - 00;08;23;02

MN

It was an interesting kind of story of starting off with someone else, you know, and then kind of transferring it over, but not wanting to abandon it because so much was invested in in the first place. And then, you know, starting to layer on this new level of thinking to the project as it became more about them and less about the previous clients.

00;08;23;02 - 00;08;25;05

DP

So, you get along with your mom and dad?

00;08;25;05 - 00;08;29;06

MN

I do. I mean, yeah, Eastern European stubbornness aside, you know, I do for sure. Yeah.

00;08;30;14 - 00;08;31;19

DP

Do you have brothers and sisters?

00;08;31;28 - 00;08;34;29

MN

I have one brother. He works for the company as well. He's like, Yeah.

00;08;35;02 - 00;08;38;29

DP

So, your interest in architecture was early on, right? Your dad was a builder?

00;08;39;04 - 00;09;42;03

MN

Yeah, for as long as I can remember, since I was ye tall – for the listener, I’m pointing very low to the ground. Yeah. I've been on construction sites with my dad. I fully attribute my interest in architecture to him and to kind of him putting me in a context of watching things materialize and happen. And so, I think as a child, I was just inherently interested in – what are we actually building? You know? Like, it's great that we're building it, but what does it look like? What does it form? What kind of space does it create afterwards? And so, I married that with another interest of mine, which was really kind of urban thinking. Though this project is in a rural context, I think my suburban upbringing really planted the seed in me to want to think about a kind of different way of thinking about architecture and living and urban qualities of sites and things like that.

And so, when you look at it through that scope, this project was sort of the evolution of those things of me being kind of surrounded in this type of, you know, suburban, rural kind of context as a child, being able to come back and work on a project with my dad was a sort of full circle moment.

00;09;42;06 - 00;09;51;23

DP

Yeah, it's an amazing experience. That's wonderful. You seem like a very intuitive, very curious guy. So, let's go through quickly what were the client's programmatic requirements?

00;09;52;02 - 00;11;14;12

MN

So, a kind of synthesis of space, really trying to tighten the space a lot so that there was no wasted space in terms of program. So, I mean, at its core of programs, there's a living room and a kitchen in the dining. There's no accessory spaces, there's not a secondary living or sitting room or a secondary nook for eating.

It's just a simple kitchen, dining, living space associated with that typical mudroom powder room, a small home office, a main bedroom, and then a series of bedrooms with individual on-suites upstairs, as well as a library kind of gallery space. But the idea was to kind of be able to synthesize all these into a very tight knit floorplan.

So, when you look at the plan of the project, it's actually only a bar, the kind of adaptations that come off of the ends, house a garage, kind of veranda, lanai space off of the back, another garage on the other side. We kind of broke them into two. And then the main bedroom is actually the only programed interior floor space that comes off.

So, the house is quite tight. It's all housed into kind of one bar, and that tightness allows for the program to kind of work its way around each other. So, there's this constant sort of voyeurism as people move through the house. They're seeing each other from multiple levels and multiple rooms, and it invites cross ventilation, which is really important to the way I approach projects. There's a certain depth to the floor plate, which allows you to cross ventilate the space and creates really good environments for living, quality of light wise and ventilation wise.

00;11;14;19 - 00;11;27;19

DP

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. I mean, I’m going to keep going and maybe we’ll come back to it. So, tell me a little bit about the site, the topographic features. Is it flat? Is there any change in elevation and how did that affect your plan?

00;11;27;25 - 00;12;03;29

MN

It's a relatively flat site. It's not a site that has really strong topography to it. It does drop off a little bit at the back. But we didn't see the design from the get go as something that could start to play with elevation because it would feel forced if we would do that, you know, if we were starting to carve out spaces out of the topography to create walkouts or things like that, we really looked at the site as something that we said, okay, this is a planar condition. It's quite nicely treed around. So really, let's emphasize the connection to the sort of natural vegetation on the site and create the sense of living within this forest condition, which is, you know, why the house is heavily glazed towards the kind of more rare private conditions.

00;12;03;29 - 00;12;11;01

DP

Yep. Not everybody is that lucky. Sometimes it's a little easier when you don't have a ton of topographic issues to deal with.

00;12;11;09 - 00;12;16;07

MN

It's certainly easier. You tend to seek out the challenges in other places… At least, I do.

00;12;16;07 - 00;12;29;28

DP

It's almost nicer, I find as an architect, to have a challenge because then it makes you really work at design, right? What about project restrictions? So, like zoning, building codes…was there anything that was challenged in regard to that?

00;12;30;09 - 00;13;58;13

MN

So, from a zoning perspective, not really, because in this area like that, the zoning is quite lenient for a neighborhood like this. Within the frame that we were building, the size that we were building, we didn't have to deal largely with zoning issues or setback issues or anything like that. From a challenge perspective, I think the biggest one is one that surrounds the way in which I approach all my projects, which is buildability.

With that I mean, I try to find a way to create really interesting and engaging architecture using really conventional methodologies. So, this is a stick frame house that limits its use of steel, and yet we see cantilevers and floor protrusions and things like that. It's like, how do we get there if you're not building a full house out of steel?

And largely like my kind of interest in that was trying to make engaging and good architecture available to both clients and contractors at a better price in a way that feels more approachable from a building standpoint. And because with this house – my father being the contractor working on it – I knew inherently how he likes to build things and what his limitations are as a builder.

I use that as a framework within which to start thinking about the design, thinking about the tectonics, thinking about really strategically, where we're using more costly steel, where we were using larger expanses of glass, but also where we were tightening them up. And so, though the house looks like it's tectonically a lot more maybe complex than it looks, if you peel all of it back to the bones, it's no different than all the neighbors, which are just typical conventional stick-built houses with wood trusses.

00;13;58;21 - 00;14;03;00

DP

Right. So, a lot of thought went into, I would imagine, how much this thing was going to cost.

00;14;03;11 - 00;14;50;19

MN

Certainly how much it was going to cost, and just the approach to how it was going to be built. So, I remember, you know, when we were working through the construction documents on the project, having weekly conversations with the contractor and with trades that were involved from the early onset of how do we want to actually make this thing materialize, how do we want to build this thing? Like, you know, how is this beam going to sit? What kind of posts is it going to sit on? And almost working through it with a really solid understanding of structural engineering without going right to the consultant and asking him what to do. Like, we had this really intimate relationship with how this thing was going to be built and in a way that sort of harkened back to the agrarian structures that it's influenced by was the individual who owns that property is going to come in and look at the timber he has and build it himself. And we're sort of creating a modern interpretation of that approach in some degree.

00;14;51;01 - 00;15;02;15

DP

So, a big question would be, in particular, if I was working with my folks, the style choice. So how did you guys end up doing a modern building? Was that something they wanted right away?

00;15;02;23 - 00;16;37;27

MN

Yeah, it started off as a contemporary project with the first client that we were working with, and they were interested in a sort of a contemporary expression of a sort of farmhouse condition, right, using sort of materials that were natural and kind of warm tone to work with the site really well. And so, we kind of kept in that vein, but certainly started to work more specifically once my father was on board with kind of continuing the journey of the project.

So, from a style perspective, the houses certainly a deviation from them like they used to kind of live in a house that was quite ornamented and detailed and things like that was a beautiful house. Right? But I think them seeing me continue to work on projects and the kind of projects I was working on, it really started to kind of have an effect on them and me coming on home at Christmas and talking about how important natural light is and that kind of stuff.

It really had an impact. So, they saw that as something that they could kind of work with themselves in terms of how to approach the house. And then on top of that, we looked at references of Eastern European architecture that felt familiar to them in terms of their context, right? So, they grew up in small villages in southern Poland where a lot of the typical houses there are just built out of like clay brick, and the clay brick is exposed, all the mortar is exposed.

So it's all load bearing. One could look at that and say, well, that's really utilitarian and reflective of the structure of the house and, you know, where's the cladding? But to me, I find that really interesting. I'm like, Oh, that is the cladding. And how do we kind of represent that in a new way? Hence where we landed with the materiality of this project, which is a kind of smoked darker tone sort of clay brick that ages really well and it has this kind of grace and it's a timeless quality. So, we looked at those precedents as a reference in terms of where the style of the house itself lands.

00;16;37;27 - 00;16;47;06

DP

So, your choice of brick masonry, really, you knew from the beginning that you were going to be using masonry there at some point, right?

00;16;47;16 - 00;17;53;28

MN

It was set out at a conceptual level, yes. Though the tone or the color or things like that were sort of up in the air. Then when my father and mother had, during the project, they kind of seemed interested in carrying on that idea. Specifically, I remember for my mother when I said, you know, we're thinking about this kind of clay colored brick and something that looks really natural.

She loved that idea. She really never understood why more houses in a kind of contemporary context didn't do that, at least in the context where they live. And to some degree because the house, you know, in its design, in its formal and massing quality, it can appear really stark compared to its neighbors. The materiality choices of it are meant to sensitize that approach.

So, this notion of really conventional brick is meant to appear familiar to kind of an onlooker or to the person that lives at that home. It has this really timeless quality to it. It's like I can understand that house because it's made of brick. It's made of a conventional thing that I know that's been around for ages and has its conventional color. That's the color that brick usually looks like. When you ask a child to draw a brick, they're going to draw a red brick, maybe with three cores, if the child is advanced enough. Right? There's this familiarity which helps make the architecture more digestible.

00;17;54;08 - 00;17;59;22

DP

So, set up the building materials in general for us because the palette isn't just brick.

00;17;59;22 - 00;18;09;04

MN

Yeah. So, the kind of two wings that ground the house at the base are a Smoked Tudor Velour modular brick. So, it has this kind of rusty sort of clay color.

00;18;09;10 - 00;18;15;10

DP

And those colors, I would use the word variegated. Right? So, we see a series of different colors in that red clay.

00;18;15;11 - 00;18;40;01

MN

Yeah. The specification of the brick itself has a variation in it. It's up to a good bricklayer to make sure they patronize it quite well. But a lot of that is just coming from like the brick looks like it's been smoked at its edges and some are more smoked than others, which is where you start to get that kind of differentiation. And we like that a lot because the house has these really monolithic large brick volumes. And so, the kind of variation, the slight variation in the tone really help to kind of break that monotony apart a little bit.

00;18;40;08 - 00;18;43;07

DP

Was it hard to find a mason?

00;18;43;07 - 00;18;44;05

MN

A good mason? Yes. It’s always hard to find a good mason.

00;18;44;06 - 00;18;45;25

DP

It is! It's crazy!

00;18;45;25 - 00;19;18;20

MN

Yeah. And so this is why, you know, as a studio, we think it's important to kind of collaborate with trades early on because they can help kind of understand or they can help kind of propose ideas about how to get the masonry right at these angles or at the cantilevers that we’re proposing, things like that. And then the other materials were using a black standing seam metal above. So conceptually the volume that hovers above these two things floats. So, metal felt more appropriate. And then we're using a composite wood system in between the windows. So that's meant to kind of be a homage to sort of old wooden shutters that kind of peel away from the window itself.

00;19;18;24 - 00;19;20;15

DP

Where did you find that?

00;19;20;15 - 00;19;35;08

MN

It’s a product – I think it's based in the States. I can't recall. It's meant to be a veneer, but it's made out of wood fibers that are infused with like fiberglass and resin. So from a durability perspective. There's no maintenance. And it retains its color over time really well.

00;19;35;12 - 00;19;41;03

DP

And you're using steel lintels over these large openings that you're then using this wood infill between the windows.

00;19;41;09 - 00;19;45;05

MN

Correct. With the main one being the cantilever at the front entry of the home.

00;19;45;14 - 00;19;47;25

DP

So how did you pull that off?

00;19;47;25 - 00;20;06;05

MN

So, you know, we're looking at brick as a simple material and it's execution that appears very traditional in the way that we're applying it. But we found moments where we could start to kind of give it a more contemporary execution, and the main one being the cantilever at the front entry, which is just upheld by steel beams that are cantilevering out and transferring their way back to kind of point loads in the house.

00;20;06;05 - 00;20;07;23

DP

So they're tied back into the walls.

00;20;08;00 - 00;20;20;19

MN

Yeah, correct. And that cantilever holds a terrace on the upper floor, so a dormer above the entry that opens out onto a south facing terrace that you can use. And even in the kind of cooler spring months, because the sun engages that terrace quite nicely.

00;20;20;25 - 00;20;23;23

DP

Right. And that's a clear glass guardrail up there.

00;20;23;23 - 00;20;24;08

MN

Just a butt joint across.

00;20;24;08 - 00;20;25;07

DP

No frames.

00;20;25;07 - 00;21;03;01

MN

No frames. Yeah. So that it just kind of appears really minimal and visually to kind of carry on the notion of this house being an antithesis, that's exemplified in this entry now. You know, just talking about it, so many of the houses in the context, you know, the entries are these large columnar conditions, you know, with very ornamented roofs and things like that meant to kind of evoke this kind of grandiosity.

And here I think we're trying to evoke a grandeur, but we're doing so in a more nuanced way, layered elements, a kind of a structural acrobatic of this cantilever, the brick kind of enveloping you, your eye moving vertically towards that dormer. It's creating that grandeur, but doing so in using kind of tectonic architectural elements.

00;21;03;11 - 00;21;08;20

DP

So, did using bricks of any particular design challenges for you or for your clients?

00;21;09;01 - 00;21;42;17

MN

From a design challenge perspective, I think you sort of touched on it before, but it was how to allow the house to bridge the gap between the history of the site, the approachability of this kind of architecture in this kind of neighborhood and this sort of nostalgia of materiality for the client's past. Right? When we looked at those three conditions, Brick felt like a very natural material to kind of start to solidify that.

So that was the challenge of how do you build something like this in this kind of neighborhood? And brick really started to provide an answer for that in terms of how to bridge those gaps and how to create an architecture that feels timeless.

00;21;42;25 - 00;21;50;11

DP

You've got these traditional gable forms and yet you have these modern flat roof forms. What are the neighbors think? Have you heard from any of them?

00;21;50;21 - 00;21;52;20

MN

From when I'm around the house and I've been there.

00;21;52;20 - 00;21;53;10

DP

Yeah.

00;21;53;10 - 00;21;59;23

MN

A lot of cars roll by very slowly, I suppose. Although, I haven't heard many words being spoken, right?

00;21;59;29 - 00;22;00;21

DP

Do your folks hear anything?

00;22;00;21 - 00;22;18;25

MN

You know, I'm sure they only hear the good things. No one's going to say their real opinions. But to me, architecture is not about pleasing everyone. It's a subjective, you know, discourse, right? So it's about creating something that feels specific to the client, but also feels like it's mindful of its context and of where it came from in a really intelligent way.

00;22;19;04 - 00;22;27;21

DP

That's well put. Besides the cantilevers with the masonry, with the brick, were there any other unique construction details that you came across as you were building this thing?

00;22;28;02 - 00;24;22;01

MN

Yeah. So I mean, you can see in one of the photos we're looking at here in the studio, the interior, we use the bricks in the interior as well on the main kind of fireplace wall. So, the interior planning is kind of regimented by these volumes. So, as I mentioned before, the kitchen dining and living spaces are sort of one holistic space and they're separated by these equal 16 foot wide, almost like objects, one being the kind of back bar of the kitchen clad in a kind of white oak, one being the sort of kitchen island, 16 foot long cloud, and of course the main one being the fireplace clad in the brick, and then the third one being a kind of double height staircase, which has these sort of steel slatted risers that link the two levels together.

So, the main rooting element was the brick on the interior. And so, from a kind of challenge perspective, we had to just understand how to reinforce that brick on a conventional concrete foundation system with two steel beams trying to look at how to do that in the most conventional and cheapest way that we can make it work from a size of a beam perspective. But in execution, we found when you lay brick inside, you have to sequence that really specifically with all the other materials that are going in the house of the all the other trades that are coming in the house. You know, when is the right time to install the brick?

And we had to perform a few acrobatics with there because there's a kind of linear expression of the fireplace that's clad in a kind of thin steel plate reveal. So, we had to kind of cantilever the brick around that as well and kind of find a meaningful way to transfer it down. And then to express the tectonics of the build – and thankfully, the good work of the trades – we have uplighting that shines up on the brick in the kind of evening moments which really help to kind of show its tactility and it's rough surfacing. This brick specifically has a really natural finish to it. It's not polished or anything like that. We really like to use materials that look like they're supposed to look what they are. Bricks should look like brick. It should feel natural, it should feel rough, it shouldn't feel metallic or shiny or things like that. And so updating it felt like a celebration of selection of the brick, too.

00;24;22;01 - 00;24;32;15

DP

So, who did all the drawing? I love to ask that question because I love to draw, and this must have been really a wonderful experience for you because you're working with people that you really know well.

00;24;32;26 - 00;25;13;12

MN

It was primarily me. Like, I was doing the drawing from kind of early concept design to the CD's – construction documents – and to the landscape design as well. We didn't touch upon that one either, but because of the H form of the house, it forms two courtyards, one at the front and one of the back of the house. You know, conventional front and back.

And then the orientation of the pool is actually perpendicular to the orientation of the house, which kind of pulls the eye out towards the backyard and then towards a kind of pool house which is not pictured on these images we're looking at. So that sort of tertiary structure, that pool house there, kind of completes the series of objects that encapsulate that rear design of the site. We looked at an execution of that as well when I was drawing this thing up.

00;25;13;21 - 00;25;20;04

DP

Did you create three dimensional renderings for your folks? So, this is 3D modeled and then what software did you use?

00;25;20;15 - 00;25;22;00

MN

A number of different software.

00;25;22;04 - 00;25;24;12

DP

Like Revit, ArchiCAD?

00;25;24;12 - 00;25;31;19

MN

Sketch paper to start. You know, trace. A lot of rolls of trace paper. And then software wise, yeah, I mean, it starts in CAD and then it moves to Revit and then--

00;25;32;00 - 00;25;33;13

DP

Revit was the main software?

00;25;33;13 - 00;25;36;24

MN

Yeah. And then some studies in Rhino and SketchUp, and some rendering--.

00;25;36;24 - 00;25;40;13

DP

So, you know your way around that whole suite of products.

00;25;40;13 - 00;25;45;04

MN

Like most things, architects know a little bit about a lot of stuff. So, I know a little bit about every program.

00;25;45;04 - 00;25;47;08

DP

That’s so well-put. It’s so true. I'm not an.

00;25;47;08 - 00;25;48;03

MN

But I’m not an expert at any of them.

00;25;48;03 - 00;26;02;19

DP

So, tell me, sustainability is something we talk a lot about and you talked a little bit about that. Could you expand on this notion, the idea that you used Brick because I guess partially because it is a sustainable material.

00;26;03;02 - 00;27;37;14

MN

Sustainability from the perspective of the material choice? Yes. That's exactly why. Like, we like that on this project, brick is long-lasting. It is a material that requires zero to no maintenance and only improves over time. The patina that it develops over time is a likable factor of the project. Thinking about, let's say in Toronto, downtown Toronto, a lot of the older buildings that were built in the late 1800s or early 1900s were built from brick that was made at Toronto factories. And it usually is just the clay brick, right? And the exterior walls are all masonry load bearing walls and the interior structure is usually heavy timber. A lot of those went down in a large fire like most projects in the Chicago, right? But the ones that are still there, which there are quite a bit of them, they're looked at as precedents of really good, timeless architecture.

And you think about why that is a big influence. That is the long lasting quality of brick. You lay it and it feels organically and naturally sustainable without having to look at other projects as a precedent, given that the manufacturing process of the brick and also have a pretty low carbon footprint. And if you're sourcing it from a plant that's close to the site itself, that all kind of engages in that sort of sustainable approach of the brick.

And then outside of that, as a piece of architecture, we talked about the tightness of the project, the tightness of the envelope, all to create forced air ventilation that feels really well rounded because the air doesn't have to move all through the house. The HVAC design of the project is really, really tight in terms of how, you know, air movement gets kind of forced into all these spaces.

And of course, in the summer months you can all but turn off all of your heating and cooling systems because the house is so naturally ventilated. So, it creates really cool environments in the hotter summer months as well.

00;27;37;27 - 00;27;51;08

DP

So, give me one thing that you guys learned. It doesn't have to be about brick, but something that you learned through this process of designing a house, having two different clients, and then getting to the finish line.

00;27;51;19 - 00;28;28;21

MN

Working with a family member can be challenging, but can also be very rewarding. It can be challenging in the sense that a family member like my father, who has years and years of experience of building houses already, right? So they're really ingrained in how they've been doing things and here comes this young’in that's trying to look at a new way of thinking about this.

So that butting of heads and that friction can be very challenging. So, it's important to kind of keep your eye on the ultimate goal that you're trying to achieve together from the outset and not lose sight of that and let cool heads prevail, essentially. Right? I think that was a big lesson learned and so much so that, you know, my father and I are still continuing to work on some projects together.

00;28;28;21 - 00;28;29;16

DP

You're still talking?

00;28;29;16 - 00;29;24;28

MN

Yeah, still talking and still doing this stuff together, which is fantastic. At the end of the day, we love and I particularly am really thankful that I get to leave this kind of legacy behind with him, you know, of doing a project together with him. It's really a great kind of thing to leave behind, you know, a physical thing.

And outside of that, we talked about it before, but getting trades involved early. You know, we had some hiccups, of course, on site, as every project does. But we did learn on this project that getting trades involved early in the process was helpful in terms of how we were able to execute exactly what we wanted because we could have those conversations and planting the seed in whoever is, you know, working on whatever the product may be that they're installing or are working on. They also feel like the project is partly theirs.

Getting good trades is a challenge from any project’s perspective, but I find when you get them excited about it, they feel like they can bring their best work, you know, in terms of trying to suffice. The challenge of presenting them and make them feel proud that they're part of the process. And I think that's a really important one.

00;29;24;28 - 00;29;49;12

DP

Yeah, it's interesting to personalize that. I always ask the clients to bring in our contractors in schematic design, right at the end of schematic design, so we can get a preliminary price on the job. But I like how you describe this as more of a kind of relationship with these people that then grows and they get excited about the job. They're in early, they get to look at the drawings and then they have something to say about the project.

00;29;49;18 - 00;30;59;03

MN

Yeah, it's a kind of evolution of the typical kind of architecture delivery methods. So, you've got your design bid build, which really can create a divide between the architect and the contractor and the client to some degree. Then you've got the design build model which tries to integrate the contractor or an architect to some degree and create a more holistic approach.

And so, this is kind of an evolution of that. It's a design build with integrated input from trades and from the clients so that everyone feels like the project belongs to each and every individual that's working on it. There's forms of that called integrated process delivery that can be really timely right? But because we're just looking at house design and house construction, we can still be really intimate and fast tracked about the process as well.

So, this project, from initial design to final conception and kind of move in was two and a half years. I've worked at offices on custom bespoke residential architecture where projects of a similar scale, but with much more rigor and structural acrobatics and things like that were 5 to 6 year process. Right? That's part of what I think is interesting to us as a studio is how do we deliver these projects in a timely manner as well and not abuse the sort of amount of time that these things take.

00;30;59;14 - 00;31;07;05

DP

Yeah, particularly important with your parents.

MN

Yeah, indeed, indeed.

DP

Well, Mateusz, thank you very much for being here.

00;31;07;05 - 00;31;08;10

MN

Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

00;31;08;10 - 00;31;10;14

DP

And tell everybody how they can find you.

00;31;10;17 - 00;31;24;22

MN

We're somewhat engaged on social media. So, our website is www.everyday-studio.ca. At Instagram where everydaystudio_ that would probably cover most of the social media, but yeah, we try to keep up to date as much as we can.

00;31;24;23 - 00;31;27;12

DP

Okay, well, Mateusz Nowacki, thank you very much.

00;31;27;12 - 00;31;28;05

MN

Yeah, thanks, Doug.

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;12

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

00;00;05;14 - 00;00;34;08

Paul Neuhaus (PN)

They wanted a full archive with plenty of space for growth into the future. The storage has different requirements depending on the kinds of documents. So, we needed to create spaces that allow them to continue to collect. And a lot of the people who come in to do research, which is another big part of what they do, they collect and preserve. But they also provide these documents to the public for access, for research, or just for curiosity and to learn.

00;00;34;11 - 00;02;55;10

DP

This is my guest, Paul Neuhaus. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we’ll highlight Paul's project, the PA State Archives. The new Pennsylvania State Archives Facility collects and preserves valuable paper documents while making them available to the public for viewing and research. The building is a state-of-the-art archival facility with an enhanced building envelope and HVAC system for the optimal environment to preserve historical paper documents.

The street facade features a linear, steel framed louver structure which surrounds a two-story high glass enclosed pavilion. The pavilion is connected to the main building, which accommodates the two public research rooms and staff spaces. While much of the building requires a windowless approach. A wide assortment of colored Norman size bricks were used to give the facade a varied and playful appearance.

The building used 350,000 brick equivalents in a blend of five different glazed brick colors. The building is three city blocks in size on three acres of land. The total storage area on three floors is 50,000 square feet and includes oversized, cool, cold, secure, and digital archives.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

Today we're talking to Paul Neuhaus, AIA, LEED AP. Paul has a bachelor's degree in art from California Lutheran University and a master's degree in architecture from UCLA Graduate School of Architecture and Urban Planning. Paul is a Senior designer for HGA. Paul is in their Minneapolis office and has been practicing for 30 years, working in their arts community and education practice group. Paul's project work includes studio arts and performing arts facilities, science labs, student centers and life science classrooms for higher ed, as well as libraries, a church and very recently, the building we will be talking about today, a paper archive for the State of Pennsylvania.

Paul strives to engender a sense of community and belonging for those who visit and work in the buildings his teams design. So welcome, Paul.

00;02;55;14 - 00;02;56;28

PN

Thank you. It's great to be here.

00;02;57;01 - 00;03;08;11

DP

It's great to have you with us today. So, before we get started, tell us a little bit about HGA architects. We know you're in the Minneapolis area. What's the size of the firm, the type of work you guys do?

00;03;08;14 - 00;03;26;05

PN

HGA is a national interdisciplinary design firm committed to making a positive, lasting impact for our clients and communities through research based holistic solutions. We’re a collective of over a thousand professionals in 12 offices nationwide.

00;03;26;08 - 00;03;30;21

DP

Wow. That's incredible. So how long has HGA been around?

00;03;30;23 - 00;03;51;26

PN

Oh, boy. We go back to the fifties. The office here in Minneapolis was the first office and Hamel Green and Abramson, the founders, started the firm. They were a well-known firm in the state for many years and grew over the years and became a dominant force here in the state. And today, they're the largest firm in the state.

00;03;51;29 - 00;03;54;09

DP

Do you have any other locations outside the state?

00;03;54;11 - 00;04;03;13

PN

Yeah, we have 11 other offices, so East Coast and West Coast mostly. We also have two offices in Wisconsin.

00;04;03;20 - 00;04;12;17

DP

That's a really big architecture firm. Tell me a little bit about the role that you play at HGA. How did you end up there and what are you doing now?

00;04;12;20 - 00;05;08;10

PN

I've been in the city practicing since 1992. As a matter of fact, I wanted to work for HGA when I first moved to the city from Los Angeles. Interviewed here a couple of times, and it just worked out that I got an offer from another firm in town and work for them. That was back in 92. And then I didn't end up working for HGA until 2014.

I was really attracted to the firm because of the high quality of the design they do. Even though they're a large firm, they really practice like a small boutique firm. There's a lot of collaboration and independent thinking here. They allow architects to really pursue individually on each project what they think the vision of that project should be. So, when you look at HGA’s work, you don't see a pattern of design that looks a certain way. Buildings and projects can go in a lot of different directions, and there really isn't a style for our firm, which is really the way it should be.

00;05;08;16 - 00;05;26;03

DP

Yeah, I mean, that's pretty unique. Most offices, you look at their work and you can spot the thread that works its way through all of the architecture, and I'm sure that's the same way with your office. And yet many offices, stylistically they're just churning out the same thing, one building after another. So that's interesting.

00;05;26;05 - 00;05;44;00

PN

There definitely is a commitment to modernism and contemporary architecture. We do that well, but we also do historical preservation. And so, we have people who are working on buildings that are hundreds of years old - that occurs too - where we have to tie into historical buildings quite often with the new additions.

00;05;44;02 - 00;05;45;23

DP

So, what is your role in the office?

00;05;45;29 - 00;06;26;00

PN

I'm a senior designer. I lead projects, teams that can be anywhere from just me to four or five architects, depending on the size of the project. And then we have interior design. HGA really is a full-service firm. We have architecture, interior design, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, structural, security, and AV. So, we can do it all, but we often will team up with other architecture firms around the country because we have an expertise that we can bring, which is in this case, museums and archives. So, we'll team up with locals and go after projects together, and that's what we did here in Pennsylvania.

00;06;26;02 - 00;06;30;14

DP

So, are you guys the architects of record or the design architects, or do you switch roles?

00;06;30;20 - 00;06;48;10

PN

Vitetta Architects is the executive architect, and we were the design architect. So, we had the upfront part of the project. We team together. We were always together working together, but we emphasized the front end of the project, and they were construction drawings and CA.

00;06;48;13 - 00;06;53;28

DP

All right, so let's jump into the building here. So, could you tell us a little bit about how your office got the project?

00;06;54;01 - 00;07;52;29

PN

You know, I wasn't there when we went after the project, but it's a typical story, I'm sure, which is there is a proposal out from an owner. They want a building, so they publish a proposal that anybody can submit to. And we looked for someone to team up with locally or they approached us, perhaps the local architect, Vitetta, and we've teamed up as a team and submitted a proposal. And then we were shortlisted, interviewed for it, and we were selected as the team to do it. We had experience doing museums and archives very recently before that, so that made a big impact on our selection.

I think it goes back to 2014 when we were selected for the project there initially was a different site. They went all the way through schematic on a site that was a green site on the edge of town. After schematic, they decided, no, we want to have a site that's closer to our capital complex in town. So, they found a different site and started design over, and that's when I joined the team.

00;07;53;01 - 00;07;59;04

DP

Wow. There's an original archive building, right? And that is done, I think in the brutalist style.

00;07;59;07 - 00;08;40;27

PN

Yeah, you could say that. It doesn't have many windows, so I could see how that would feel Brutalist. It's limestone, however, it's got a concrete structure, but the structure isn't expressed on the outside like you would typically see for brutalist architecture. It's at the Capitol grounds. It's 21 stories tall. And the problem with it is it's a low floor to floor, by today's standards. They considered upgrading it and expanding it, but they determined that the low floor to floor wouldn't allow them to create the updates they need for mechanical systems. Plus, there just wasn't enough space around it to move laterally. So, they decided the thing to do was to find a new site.

00;08;40;29 - 00;08;53;07

DP

So, I'm curious, when they came to you and this was their original building, did they talk at all about style? Clearly the floor heights were an issue. Did they say, “Hey, we don't want to do this again. We want something that's a little more contemporary”?

00;08;53;12 - 00;09;38;12

PN

Good question. Yes, they wanted a contemporary building. They wanted something that reflected today and the way we think about architecture today, which is great. The building that was built originally was a modern building, too. It was of its time. The History Museum is right next to it that will continue to be used. It was great that they wanted to look forward and be progressive about style, and I don't know if we ever talked style per se.

We just had already gone through schematic design. Like I said on this other site with another team. So, I think there was some sort of way of working that had already been established so that when I started on the new site as the lead designer, they had already had some confidence in us and were on board with the way we work.

00;09;38;15 - 00;09;43;13

DP

So, tell us a little bit about the programmatic requirements they came to you guys with.

00;09;43;15 - 00;11;52;13

PN

They wanted a full archive with plenty of space for growth into the future. So, of 146,000 square feet of this building, about 50,000 square feet is the archive storage spaces. The storage has different requirements depending on the kinds of documents it might be worth saying that the Pennsylvania State Archives collects, preserves, and makes available for study the permanently valuable public records of the Commonwealth, with particular attention given to the records of state government.

And as the Archives director, David Carmichael, once said, “they collect everything from parchment to pixels.” As a matter of fact, William Penn, who founded the Commonwealth in 1681, used a charter that gave him the right to establish the Commonwealth. And that charter is at the archives in Pennsylvania and as well as hundreds of millions of other documents that are important to the Commonwealth.

So, we needed to create spaces that allow them to continue to collect. So, it's important the whole process of how documents arrive at the site are brought in, brought into processing rooms, and then eventually put into storage. Quite often they're also photographed so that they can have a digital record of the document and a lot of the people who come in to do research, which is another big part of what they do, they collect and preserve, but they also provide these documents to the public for access, for research or just for curiosity and to learn.

So, there is this whole system of how documents are moving in and how they're being brought to the public to use and then put back into storage. The documents can be anything from large documents in flat files like maps. They can be eight and a half by eleven size. Some of the rooms need to be cool or even cold. So, there are different climates, let's say, in some of these rooms based on the type of media it is. For instance, film that they'll collect needs to be in a very cool environment. So, they have different climates in each space.

00;11;52;16 - 00;12;05;03

DP

Well, that's really interesting. So, let's go back a little bit. Tell us a little bit about the site. Are there any unique topographic features? Is it completely flat? Was it a pretty simple thing to put a building on it?

00;12;05;05 - 00;13;08;18

PN

Yeah, it's a three-acre site and there are two main streets on the west and east side. Sixth Street on the west is about one story above Seventh Street, which is on the East. And Seventh Street is a main feeder artery that comes into town, while sixth is more of a residential neighborhood or semi commercial residential. So, we put the public entry on Sixth Street, which is up a level which means of the four level building, there's a lower level that's a walk out, let's say on the east side.

And then the public enters on what we call first floor, which is one level up from the lower level. The site is also L-shaped, which sounds like it could be a problem, but it really isn't because it's a large enough site that it provides for the building and public space. So, we were able to create a nice plaza out front and lots of landscaping in front of the building to provide a public amenity, let's say, to the people who live in the community and anyone who's visiting.

00;13;08;21 - 00;13;11;23

DP

Did you guys have any challenging restrictions, in terms of zoning?

00;13;11;26 - 00;14;22;26

PN

There were challenges with infrastructure. We had some issues needing to connect the archive with the state capital complex with fiber optics. So, there was a fiber optic line that had to come underground all the way to our site and that was done on a different contract. But we also had a lot of flexibility. For instance, there were streetlights and so on around the site and in some cases, especially on the front where we met the public, we were able to move the streetlights across the street from us because we just didn't think it would be nice having all the lights and lines right out in front of the building.

So, there was some infrastructural work that was done more on a urban scale level to help accommodate this building. Also add that at the same time that we were doing this building, there was a federal courthouse being put in, which is just about completed now too, at the same time. So, these two large buildings that are within a couple of blocks from each other going in at the same time was interesting.

And we actually worked – we had one meeting with the local architect, the design architects of that building, so that we could coordinate a little bit on what some of the public lighting would look like.

00;14;22;28 - 00;14;44;05

DP

The building stylistically, you've got this large glass atrium space and you've got this metal framed armature that wraps that. And then I'm assuming going off in the other direction, you've got a very large block that is made out of masonry. Is that correct?

00;14;44;07 - 00;16;25;19

PN

That's right. We took that stated purpose, the mission statement of the archive, which is the archive collects, preserves, and makes available for study. We took those three ideas, and we turned them into form and gave each form its own material. So, for instance, “collects” is the storage of the archives. That became a form that you just described as masonry.

They preserve, and mechanical systems are an important part of preservation. We have the unique situation of all of the mechanical systems needing to be off to the side of the archive that couldn't be on top of the archive because we couldn't risk any sort of liquids leaking out of mechanical systems into the archives. So, all of the mechanical systems are in their own bay off to the side. That's the preservation part. And we use metal panels to describe that bay.

And then finally, “making available to the public,” there was a public element of it, and in this case, we made it a glass pavilion and we used an aluminum extruded solar shade custom made to protect people from direct sunlight but provide lots of daylight. So, it's very open, very visible. You drive by it on Sixth Street and great views in and out to the street and from the road in. But it's got its own expression from the other elements. And so those three elements look very different from each other. They each really have a different personality, but they're all neutral in color. They're grays from white to medium gray, nothing - it's a very tight range of neutral tones.

00;16;25;23 - 00;16;35;09

DP

Yeah, for a storage facility, it's pretty welcoming. The elevation with the glass and this metal armature is really quite lovely.

00;16;35;15 - 00;16;36;07

PN

Thank you.

00;16;36;10 - 00;16;51;15

DP

So, I saw some really interesting studies in your emails back and forth with Glen-Gery in regard to the colors that you ultimately chose for the facades. There's really a lot there. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

00;16;51;17 - 00;20;13;16

PN

That's a great part of the story. We knew that the archive wing would be enveloped by a long expanse of wall. Archives don't want to have windows, so there were not going to be many windows and this building was going to be up to four stories tall. So, we wanted to make sure that what we put on the building would be something that would be out of the ordinary. And we didn't have the budget for limestone. The Capitol complex is limestone. The original building was that way, but we wanted something durable and where we could allude in some way to what was going on at the Capitol. We thought brick is durable. It's a good candidate for an archive because of that, and we wanted to make some connection to the limestone.

We began looking for a light-colored brick, very neutral, something that could echo that limestone. But clay doesn't come in neutrals like we wanted it. You know, Clay typically is in the Browns, yellow reds. You can get it to be black or very close to black. But everything we found seemed to be a little bit too warm. The closest we could get was a very light-yellow brick, and even then, it just felt a little too warm. So, we started considering clay slip coatings that are available on the market for bricks that could be applied to the brick to get a lighter and more neutral look. And that's when we came across Glen-Gery. We found some buildings on the Internet that traced us back to Glen-Gery. I don't remember how, but we were able to find them. And then Glen-Gery could make custom colors in the matte, but they also could make glossy glazed finishes. So that's when we started to consider that. And from there we began a conversation with them about brick colors and finishes.

Eventually I took a trip to their plant up in northern Pennsylvania. One time I landed in Pittsburgh, rented a car, drove up to their plant, and then from there I went to a client meeting in Harrisburg. It was really a fun visit just to see that plant work and meet with the artist. They had like an artist lab or chem lab where they can mix custom colors. And we had really good conversations and that really convinced me that this had a lot of potential. It wasn't a shoe in, it wasn't sure yet that we could go this route, but I just felt like there was a path to get there.

And eventually we went the route of glazed brick over the matte finish. We found the shine and reflectance of the wall surface potentially very appealing, especially on a large building with so few windows. Second, there was a side benefit with the glazed brick, and we believe that it would help resist graffiti and make it easier to clean because we were in an area where graffiti could be an issue. So that was another selling point for going that direction. It certainly worked in terms of getting the state to back that idea of going with a glazed brick, because I think it just seemed very unusual that a building would be entirely covered with glazed brick, and it helped that we were using very subdued colors like grays. We have five colors. It's a range of grays. And when you stand back, they kind of blend together. It creates what I like to call a heathered look. You know, if this were a knit sweater, it would be using heathered gray yarn and it kind of all blends together.

00;20;13;16 - 00;20;22;16

DP

Well, when the bricks glaze, does it reflect images or light or is there anything special about the facade when you stand back and look at it, other than the color?

00;20;22;23 - 00;20;51;12

PN

In a surprising way, that was very pleasant, once it got put up – especially on that north side where it's a long wall of brick – we were really surprised and pleased to see that on a cloudy day as the clouds are going over, it reflects the sky and the clouds, enough really to - it's not like a mirror, but it gives you a nice feeling that this building is somehow relating to the sky. So we really like that part of it.

00;20;51;14 - 00;21;01;19

DP

It all sounds really cool. Before we wrap this part of the conversation up, tell me about the mockups you guys did for the colors of the brick. They're really cool. It was a great idea.

00;21;01;22 - 00;22;22;18

PN

Yeah. Thanks. We started just by getting Sherwin-Williams paint chips. They make eight by ten paint samples. We pulled out a whole bunch of neutral colors with little bits of warm and cool associated with them and had them sent to us. Then we took the ones that we found most appealing, and we created a brick shape with using chipboard, glued them down, and then we started to assemble different quantities and proportions of different colors and just started mixing things until we saw something that looked appealing.

So, we created this mockup model where we could try different proportions. We kept records of how many of this color, how many of that on each set up that we did. And we created a whole series of these that we could first show ourselves and figure out which ones we liked the best. And then we took them to the client and showed them to them and tried to find where the sweet spot was for this blend.

From there we started to work with Glen-Gery to actually come up with samples, glazed brick samples. They weren't full bricks right away. They were just pieces of clay, small, maybe four by three inches, for starters, until we could come up with something closer to the actual colors we'd want to consider.

00;22;22;21 - 00;22;45;28

DP

You know, what's so surprising to me is you take five colors, put them together on a board. You've got 30 or 40 bricks. Each one of these samples, you stand back, and you look at, I'm just blown away that you can do that on a facade, and it never looks busy. You stand back and it becomes like another color. It becomes the color in-between all the colors. How did you even know that was going to happen?

00;22;46;00 - 00;23;31;00

PN

That's a good question. You're digging into the way we had to think about this. You know, some of our mockups had more contrast. Some of them had less contrast. And I think you need to find that point where the contrast is enough to give some variety and not make it look homogenous. But you don't want it to be so contrasty that it starts to look speckled. We didn't want to speckled looking, building, so it was just a matter of setting things up, looking at them close and then walking away and looking at them from, you know, 100 feet away and just see how well they blend together. It's like pixels, right, on your computer. These were really just physical pixels. And the farther you get back, the more they blend.

00;23;31;03 - 00;23;47;29

DP

So, at the end of the day, when you guys were all done with the job, was there anything that you learned that was really interesting about the design or the construction process? Again, as an aside, being the designer architects, it's got to be interesting handing a job over and then coming back to it as it nears completion, right?

00;23;48;01 - 00;24;39;20

PN

Yeah. And fortunately, we had a great working relationship with Vitetta, Daniel Wasik, the architect who led the team at Vitetta, who did a wonderful job. We had a good relationship and all the way through construction drawings, we were actively reviewing the drawings with them and participating in meetings. They were leading that process at that point from there on out but we were still involved. And even during construction administration, I didn't get to go to the site until late in the game. However, we were getting pictures from them monthly, lots of pictures. They were really good about it. They would tell us if there were any issues, we'd work it through together. So, it really worked well. And I have to say, I've never worked with a local architect that well before. It was a wonderful relationship and I’d love to work with them again sometime.

00;24;39;23 - 00;24;43;03

DP

That's really cool. Did the GC have any trouble finding a good mason?

00;24;43;10 - 00;24;45;05

PN

I know that there were issues.

00;24;45;05 - 00;24;47;11

DP

It's always an issue.

00;24;47;14 - 00;25;23;03

PN

Yeah. I mean, when I look at the building, it was well done overall.

You know, we had some complicated pieces to it too. For instance, we had an overhang at the front entry with brick hanging ten feet out, cantilever out over the entryway, and we designed it so that the brick at the bottom was not supported by an angle. We hid the structure and hung those two courses at the bottom from a structure up inside the wall. So, we were able to glaze even the underside of the brick hanging out over that cantilever, which wasn't an easy thing to accomplish.

00;25;23;03 - 00;25;24;17

DP

Yeah, it sounds expensive.

00;25;24;23 - 00;25;44;28

PN

It was, but it's a state building and you want it to be done right, and further, I don't know if you've had this experience on your work, but I've gone back to visit buildings sometimes that are years old, ten years old maybe, and some of those angles that support brick can start to rust. So, we wanted to avoid having that happen on a building this important.

00;25;45;00 - 00;26;04;20

DP

Yeah. And you know, you're going to make a few statements in the architecture and that's one really big one right at the front of the building. Very cool. So, before you go, you've been at this for 30 years or so. If you could give yourself – your younger self some career advice, what would it be?

00;26;04;22 - 00;26;49;17

PN

Oh, boy. Well, I do meet with mentees – we have a mentorship program here at HGA, which is highly valued by the people who are just starting out in their careers. And sometimes what I'll tell them is try to pay attention to everything you do, even the details. And not just focus on the big picture because the more you can know about the way buildings are specifically put together, the more you can understand about the structure and the other disciplines, the better you can be at making those decisions and choices at the beginning of your project. And so, I always encourage architects, especially people who are interested in being designers, to learn every aspect of the project down to the details.

00;26;49;20 - 00;26;56;24

DP

Yeah, if you're not interested in being a lifelong learner, architecture may not be the right profession for you.

00;26;56;26 - 00;26;57;16

PN

That's true.

00;26;57;16 - 00;26;59;28

DP

Right? You're always learning something.

00;27;00;06 - 00;27;01;08

PN

I'm still learning.

00;27;01;12 - 00;27;08;25

DP

Oh, yeah, I am too. Every day. So, Paul, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about HGA architects?

00;27;08;25 - 00;27;18;15

PN

They would go to hga.com, and we've got our projects there that you can look at, and our teams, our people. It's a fun place to go.

TRANSCRIPT

00;27;18;18 - 00;27;21;25

DP

That's great. It sounds like a really interesting place to work.

00;27;22;00 - 00;27;34;05

PN

It is. I really enjoy it. There's a lot of smart people here and I'm so glad that I get to play the role I play. But I also admire those people who play all the other roles that we have at this firm.

00;27;34;08 - 00;27;34;28

DP

That's great, Paul. Thank you.

00;27;35;01 - 00;27;39;18

PN

Thank you. It was a pleasure.